LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.04.07 (04) [D/E/German]

Fri Apr 7 19:59:09 UTC 2006

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07 April 2006 * Volume 04
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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.04.06 (05) [D]

Ingmar schreef:

> ... Een aantal mensen zou graag zien dat BelgiÃ«, inclusief het Franstalig
> deel, Frans-Vlaanderen en Luxemburg een eenheid met Nederland zou vormen,
> zo'n beetje de oude Nederlanden dus. Eerlijk gezegd heb ik zelf ook
> dikwijls met die gedachte gespeeld, daarbij ook nog bepaalde aangrenzende
> delen van Duitsland rekenend die een speciale taalkundige, culturele en/of
> godsdienstige band met Nederland hebben.

I think, that the Dutch politics since about the 17th century (1648 AD) was
so totally concentrated on the sea and their colonies respectively, so that
they forgot about their natural hinterland in todays Germany, Luxemburg,
Belgium and France. I think if the Dutch rulers had a certain concern on
North-Western Germany in these centuries, North Rhine-Westphalia, Low
Saxony, Bremen, Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein would/could be Dutch today
and even further parts of Germany, depending on the extent of Dutch
engagement in Germany, which, as I said, never took place in modern times.

> Ik had het heel interessant gevonden, Ã ls BelgiÃ« zich niet had
> afgescheiden van Noord-Nederland en Luxemburg later eveneens, hoe de
> huidige taalkundige situatie in WalloniÃ« dan was geweest, bijvoorbeeld
> Waalse en Picardische dialecten met Nederlands als officiÃ«le taal, of had
> het Frans ook nog een rol gespeeld? Zouden die Waalse dialecten dan
> Ã¼berhaupt nog als deel van de Franse taal zijn beschouwd, of als aparte
> taal?
> Om te weten of Brussel dan volledig Nederlandstalig was gebleven (zeer
> waarschijnlijk wel). Hoe de huidige Nederlandse standaardtaal er dan had
> uitgezien, met een veel groter aandeel van sprekers van zuidelijk-centrale
> taalvariÃ«teiten. Had dit een conserverende werking op het AN gehad, zou
> er
> bijvoorbeeld nog 'gij zijt' worden geschreven, en 'den gro(o)ten man'.

Sounds pretty plausible to me. On the other hand, the rulers in Belgium till
Napoleon were German or Austrian and what was their influence on the
language situation? Did they promote French then? Since all nobles spoke
French in the 18th and 19th century. Even the Prussian nobles are said to
have spoken German only with their horses, so about Friedrich den Großen.
What did the Habsburgs from Karl V
(http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_V_van_het_Heilige_Roomse_Rijk) to the
"Österreichische Niederlanden"
(http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sterreichische_Niederlande)?

> Wat zou de invloed van de grote Rooms-Katholieke meerderheid dan hebben
> betekend?

That would have resulted in a closer alliance to High German, as for me
Belgium Dutch is a bit ajar to Standard German as isn't language use in the
Netherlands. The Dutch pretty often aim to sound their spoken and look their
written language as Non-German as possible, whereas the Belgian-Dutch do it
the other way round, isn't it?

> Hoe zou het Letzenburgisch dan geklonken hebben, als een soort
> Zuid-Limburgs misschien door de invloed van het Nederlands en het
> ontbreken van de Duitse taal en van het Frans in het openbare leven?

I remember some years ago I was on a chair-lift in the Alps and there was a
couple next to me and I heard them speaking a language which sounded for me
a mix of German and Dutch. I listened to them quite attentively but I could
not understand much. Before they left the chair I asked them: "Sorry, aber
was für eine Sprache sprecht ihr da, ist das Luxemburgisch?" They answered:
"Nein, das ist Limburgisch."

> Allemaal zaken van Ã¡ls natuurlijk, het was voor mij als "Lunatic Language
> Lover" wel leuk geweest om te weten, maar daar zullen we nooit achter
> komen want de geschiedenis is anders gelopen. ...

Aber standard-sprachlich sind sich die Niederlande und Belgien doch heute so
nah wie noch nie, nicht wahr? Weil doch, wie ich hier auf Lowlands
mitbekommen habe, heute einerseits viele Leute gar keinen oder nur einen
abgeschwächten Dialekt sprechen und andererseits ja die "Taalunie" erst seit
einigen Jahren besteht, die es ja davor nicht wirklich gegeben hat. Oder
habe ich da was falsch verstanden? Überhaupt geht die Europäische
Entwicklung insgesamt in Richtung Abbau von Grenzen in jeder Hinsicht,
zumindest was das sogenannte Kern-Europa betrifft.

Liebe Grüße
Karl-Heinz, de Oostenrijker

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Karl-Heinz!

Good to hear from you.

> I think, that the Dutch politics since about the 17th century (1648 AD) 
> was
> so totally concentrated on the sea and their colonies respectively, so 
> that
> they forgot about their natural hinterland in todays Germany, Luxemburg,
> Belgium and France. I think if the Dutch rulers had a certain concern on
> North-Western Germany in these centuries, North Rhine-Westphalia, Low
> Saxony, Bremen, Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein would/could be Dutch today
> and even further parts of Germany, depending on the extent of Dutch
> engagement in Germany, which, as I said, never took place in modern times.

This is pretty much also what I think.  It's great to see that someone else 
thinks about it and does this sort of "what-if" speculating.  Seen from a 
Dutch angle, the Netherlands may be seen as having been asleep at the job, 
or, as you said, they were too obsessed with overseas riches to cover their 
behinds.  What is now Northern Germany was ready for the taking, considering 
also the linguistic and cultural continuum that at that time would have made 
it pretty easy to bring in the _Oosterschen_.  What may have played a role, 
though, is that until about that time competition between Dutch and 
Hanseatic merchants had been fierce.  The Dutch may not have been totally 
aware that the Hanseatic League was dead or dying, and for that reason they 
may have been reluctant to risk a confrontation in the east, at least 
farther east than Emsland, Westphalia and the Ruhr Region.

It's always interesting, albeit perhaps fruitless, to go down the "what-if" 
lane, isn't it?

For your contribution and because today is Friday you get a Hawaiian name:

Uakokoakai-ma-Kualono
(< *Huatotohatai-ma-Tuarongo)
   a kai: of the shore [Küsten...]
   kualono: region near the mountain top [Gipfelgebiet]
   ma: on [auf]
   uakoko: earth-clinging rainbow [an der Erde haftender Regenbogen]

Liebe Grüße,
Reinhard/Ron 

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