LL-L 'Names' 2006.12.29 (02) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L - 29 December 2006 - Volume 02
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From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Names' 2006.12.28 (02) [E]

Dear Lowlanders

 I also notice the rapid decline of correct pronunciation of old place names
and the decline of knowledge where those names once came from. It always
causes me a shiver when I sit in a local train from Wistedh to Nömönster and
the woman on the tape anounces the station Wasbek as "Wasbeck", which is
simply wrong. Brokstedt (south of Nömönster) often gets mis-pronounced as
"Brockstedt" when it should be "Brookstedt". But now all school kids listen
to this every morning and probably believe this to be the correct
pronuniciation because it is in spotless standart German. Also the old
st-pronunciation as in Stafstedt is rapidly disappearing and is replaced by
"Schtafstedt", sometimes even mis-pronounced as Schtafstett, as if it is in
Southern Germany. In our local Low Saxon we pronounce it Staafste' but I
think I will prepared to give this one up if I could at least preserve
Staafsteedt... The situation is even worse in Northrhine-Westphalia where
they have an old tradition to
 spell the ee-sound "ec" and "oo" as "oc" as in Sonsbeck or Batenbrock which
should be pronounced Sonsbeek and Batenbrook but guess what is
happenening... . Also the "oi" for "oo" in placenames such as Grevenbroich
is increasingly pronounced as "Grevenbreuch", just terrible. At least in
Mekelnborg they pointed out after re-establishing the region in 1990 that it
is pronounced "Meeklenburg" and not "Mecklenburg", so far it seems to have
been officially accepted.

 The mis-pronunciation is a result of a very strict policy in schools to
indoctrinate pupils that German can only be pronounced in one official way,
all others are wrong, and the indoctrination is less tolerant then e.g in
the UK. I find it shocking how uniform Northern German urban speech has
become, I can hardly tell the difference anymore between Bremen, Hannover
and Hamburg. In particular, females have a tendency to sound as High-German
as possible, obviously they regard any approach to the old Low Saxon speech
as un-fashionable, low in status and, above all, un-educated. The funny
thing is that those trying hardest to sound as High-German and "educated" as
possible have great difficulties to pronounce English because then they have
to give up the German model and adopt a different one which often resembles
the old "inferior" Low Saxon. You can often tell how difficult it is for
them to unlock this blockade in their head.

 Denn laat se man geel snacken...

 Gröten un alens gode för dat neeje jaar vun

 Helge

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Names' 2006.12.28 (02) [E]

> Thanks also for your input, Jonny.  But let's not forget that the majority
> of local Low Saxon place names do not fall into the described category but
> are remembered rather than retranslated.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

What about "Braunschweig"? I think the correct LS name is Brunswiek or
Bronswiek. I wonder why this city wasn't given back its original LS name
after WW2 since Braunschweig is the place where Hitler got German
citizenship and so the (High-)German name has got involuntarily a negative
connotation, sort of "die braune Schweig" as a kind of shelter or forcing
ground in respect to "die Braunen", the Nazis.

Mich würde interessieren, ob es Bestrebungen gab/gibt den Namen zu ändern.
Wikipedia sagt, dass nicht die Stadt sondern der Freistaat Braunschweig für
das braune Stigma verantwortlich sei, weil die Stadt im Gegensatz zum
Freistaat nicht "braun" sondern "rot" gewesen sei. Wäre dann also
"Rotschweig" die bessere Wahl?

Nein, ernsthaft: ich finde man sollte den Namen ändern, "Braunschweig"
stünde dann für den ehemaligen Freistaat und "Brunswiek" für die Stadt. Das
niedersächsische Original ist ja darüber hinaus im Gegensatz zur
hochdeutschen Abwandlung alles andere als provinziell, sondern international
gebräuchlich, siehe:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brunswik

Da steht auch:

"Braunschweig: Seit 1573 nachgewiesen, handelt es sich vermutlich um eine
verunglückte hochdeutsche Übertragung des mittelniederdeutschen 'Brunswiek',
siehe: Braunschweig (Begriffsklärung)"

Und was ist eigentlich mit "Wolfsburg"? Dieser Name hat's doch auch
irgendwie in sich, nicht? Ich meine Stalingrad, Leningrand uä gibt's ja auch
nicht mehr.

Regards bzw. liebe Grüße

Karl-Heinz

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Oh, and before I forget it ... Many people now use German *Schweiz*
and *Österreich
*instead of native *Swietz* and *Oost(en)riek* for 'Switzerland' and '
Austria'.

As far as local place name misinterpretation and distortion in power
languages are concerned, I believe we are dealing with a universal
phenomenon.  Slavonic place names in now predominantly or solely
Germanic-speaking Austria and Germany are a good example, as are Celtic
place names of the United Kingdom and Ireland, Germanic place names in
France, Greek place names in Turkey, and not to mention Europeanized
versions of non-European names in (former) colonies.

For the languages in which those place names originated to import the
foreign version represents a step farther and may signal alienation from the
native heritage.  Another example of this is that even many local native
Irish speakers are protesting against the government's official renaming of
Dingle to Irish An Daingean. According to interviews I listened to, the main
concern seems to be that the "renaming" would adversely affect tourism, i.e.,
the town folks' economy.  It was interesting to hear native Irish speakers
say in English things like "It's always been 'Dingle'. Why change it?"  I
agree, though with reservations regarding the use of "always."  But in my
book the town has two names: "An Daingean" in Irish and "Dingle" in
English.  Why shouldn't both of them be official, depending on which
language you use?  (Actually, there's another Irish name: Daingean Uí Chúis,
but let's not belabor this.) But perhaps for some reason this (in my opinion
logical) solution won't fly because the official language of Ireland is
Irish.  Does this mean that we can no longer use the names "Ireland,"
"Dublin," "Cork," "Killarney," etc. but must use "Éire," "(Baile) Átha
Cliath," "Corcaigh," "Cill Airne" instead? Will the next step be to say in
English "Roma," "Warszawa," "Praha," "Catalunya," "München" and "Wien"
instead of traditional "Rome," "Warsaw," "Prague," "Catalonia," "Munich" and
"Vienna"? Why only *one* version of each name? Why only "Fryslân" instead of
"Fryslân" in Frisian and "Friesland" in Dutch, English, German, etc.? Am I
missing something?

Karl-Heinz, I assume your posting was at least in part tongue in cheek.
Surely you don't seriously suggest that Braunschweig be renamed because
Hitler was (for some weird reason) given German citizenship there (which, by
the way, makes me rethink my opposition to the discriminatory US law whereby
you can only become a US president if you were born in the country ... oh,
and the possibility of Arnold Schwarzenegger's possible run for the White
House ...).  How about renaming Austria where Hitler was born and Munich
where he was elected?  Hmm ... but I do tend to agree with regard to
Wolfsburg.  The name has always given me the shivers.  I suggest replacing
it with English "Beetleville" to be used in whatever language, except in
Ireland where it shall be "Baile Dhaol."

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron
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