LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.17 (02) [E]

Lowlands-L lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Fri Feb 17 16:31:07 UTC 2006


======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/index.php?page=rules
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

17 February 2006 * Volume 02
=======================================================================

From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.16 (04) [E/LS/German]

> From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.15 (08) [E/LS]
>
> Ever since I first heard the expression "te griest" in my Getelands
> dialect
> (East-Brabant), I have been mystified by it. The meaning of it is "along a
> shorter or the shortest way" (for instance through, across a field). I
> wonder if the expression is known in other Brabant or Limburg dialects. I
> have an idea as to the origin of 'griest' and hope it might be
> corroborated
> elsewhere by words sounding even distantly like 'griest'. A friend of mine
> tells me that in the Tessenderlo area they use 'grieks' in exactly the
> same
> meaning, but don't jump to conclusions. It is clear to me that both words
> are a corruption of a third word.
> I hope some of you might be able to supply forms that could help solve the
> problem.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Roger Hondshoven
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hey, Roger!
>
> Have you considered the possibility that this _grieks_ ~ _griest_
> originated as an adverb in the superlative (_-(e)st_)?  Is there an
> adjective or an adverb that is something like *_grie(k)_, *_grie(g)_ or
> *_grie_.  Or could it be umlauted and related to German _gerade_
> 'straight' ((>?) LS _graad'_ ~ _gra_) -- *girâdist > (*_girêdist_ >)
> *_greist_ > _griest_ (> *_grieks_)?
>
> Taking wild stabs.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Hi Ron,

Thank you for sharing your views on the origin of the tantalizing word
'griest' with me. As a matter of fact I had already contemplated the
relationship with German gerade, Old High German girâdi and the action of
umlaut, but I didn't want to mention it for fear I should influence any
readers of my posting. But I hadn't thought yet of the possibility of a
superlative. Te griest stands all by itself; there are no such forms as
*grie(k/g). That's what makes griest so much more mysterious. I think you
made a highly valuable suggestion. It's not such a wild stab. Many thanks. I
hope some people might come up with comparable words.

Kind regards,

Roger

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.16 (04) [E/LS/German]

> From: Roger Hondshoven <roger.hondshoven at pandora.be>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.15 (08) [E/LS]
>
> Ever since I first heard the expression "te griest" in my Getelands
> dialect
> (East-Brabant), I have been mystified by it. The meaning of it is "along a
> shorter or the shortest way" (for instance through, across a field).

In my Limburgish (Vliermaal) I would use "terwjaas".
E.g. not taking the road around a field but going straight over the field in
the shortest way. I guess in Dutch I would use "dwars over".

"Terwjaas" is also used for people who never agree and behave difficult in
decisions; I guess the closest in Dutch would be "dwarskop".

Regards,
Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

A double dose of Roger today!  Thanks, guys.

Roger (H.), you're most welcome.  Well, perhaps there's something to our 
provisional hypothesis if two brilliant minds have gone that way.  ;-)

Roger (T.), _terwjaas_ sounds interesting, and I wonder if it is not also 
connected with _dwars_, perhaps a matter of reanalysis.

In Low Saxon -- at least in the northern dialects, we use _dwars_ too, 
pronounced [dva:s].  Its basic meaning is that of German _quer_: 
'transverse', 'crossways', 'diagonally', 'across', 'at right angles', 
'athwart' (!!!), 'aslant', 'abeam'.

_Dwars_ appears to be related to English "thwart" < Old English _þwert_ as 
well as to German _quer_ and in some Low Saxon dialects _dwer_.  (There is 
this _þw-_ > _dw-_ ~ _kw-_ again, as related to some Slavonic loans such as 
*_twarek_ > _kwark_ <Quark>.)

As for 'to take a shortcut', I'd probably say _dwars roever gaan_ in Low 
Saxon.  (What would the rest of you say?)

Like in the the case of English "thwart," _dwars_ and _quer_ come with 
vibrations of "counter ...," "contrary" or "against," much like in "to 
thwart" = "to cross" = 'to prevent'.

A common derivation of _dwars_ is _verdwars_ ~ _voerdwars_, which to my 
understanding adds a clearer meaning of "contrary," such as in _Dat gayt my 
verdwars_ 'That runs counter to what I'm trying to do', 'That bothers me'. 
To my understanding, this connotes more clearly the sense of "crossing" than 
does _Dat gayt my touwedder(n)_, where _touwedder(n)_ is mostly "against," 
"opposed" (as in "direct clash").

And, _dwars_ being a favorite word among Low Saxon speakers (not to mention 
something approaching a cultural characteristic, as some of you may have 
gathered by now), there are many other derivations, some of them interesting 
and amusing.  Here's a sampling (important words -- so take a note of 
them!):

(ver)dwars snakken <(ver)dwars snacken> ("thwart-
     talk") 'to talk in a contrary and opinionated manner',
     'to talk back'

(ver)dwars verstaan <(ver)dwars verstahn> ("thwart-
     understand") 'to misunderstand', 'to twist someone's
     meaning'

(ver)dwars kyken <(ver)dwars kieken> ("thwart-look")
     'to be cross-eyed', 'to peer', 'to leer', 'to squint'

dwarsloyper ~ dwarslouper <Dwarslöper> ~ <Dwarsloper>
     [pl. _s] ("thwart-runner") 'crab'

dwarskop <Dwarskopp> [pl. _-köp_] ("thwart-head")
      'eccentric person', 'person with odd ideas' [surely no one
     *we* know]

dwarsdryver <Dwarsdriever> [pl. _-s] ("thwart-driver")
     (1) 'bad navigator'; (2) 'contrary person', 'opinionated
      person with non-mainstream ideas and attitudes'
     [again, no one *we* would know here]

dwarsbüngel <Dwarsbüngel> [pl. _-s_] (< _Dwarsbü(t)tel_
     "twart-bad"?) same as _dwarsdryver_ (2)

dwarsbuydel ~ dwarsbüttel ~ dwarsbüddel <Dwarsbütel> ~
     <Dwarsbüdel> ~ <Dwarsbüttel> ~ <Dwarsbüddel>
     ("thwart-bag") [pl. _-s_] same as _dwarsdryver_ (2),
     'weird person', 'absent-minded person', 'nerd',
     'eccentric person'

dwarsmoel(en) <Dwarsmöhl(n)> ("thwart-mill(s)")
     'helicopter' (jocular neologism, mostly in the far north)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

==============================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================



More information about the LOWLANDS-L mailing list