LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.27 (01) [E]

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 27 February 2006 * Volume 05
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From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.26 (04) [E]

Heather wrote:
>Would people mind if we went back to 'poll' and its origins.
>
>Did I understand correctly that its meaning of 'head' came after its
>meaning 'to cut' and the noun 'pollard' ?
>
>Is it common across the Lowland languages?

Would this be related to Scots "pow" for head, then? And Dutch "bolletje"?

Gabriele Kahn

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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.26 (04) [E]

Hi Roger and Ron

I believe we're dealing with diphthongization of e's and final r-deletion
here rather than metathesis and r -> j.
All the words in the examples have an <e> in it originally, not aa as in
Standard Dutch, so *kers, *vers for Modern Dutch kaars, vaars etc.
This <e>, especially before r, could easily become diphthongized into
i-e, hence ki-ers, vi-ers. As in Standard Dutch and very many Low Saxon
dialects, <e> before <r> became <a>, hence <ki-ers> -> <ki-ars>.
Finally the -r was dropped, which is also very common in many Dutch
Belgium dialects, and in Low Saxon, so <ki-ars> -> <ki-aas> (kjaas).

The theory of kaars -> *kraas -> *kjaas, as you proposed below, seems
highly unlikely...

Groeten
Ingmar

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Roger:
>
>> Kers -> kjoe-es
>> vers -> vjoe-es
>> kerel -> kjal
>> kaars -> kjaas
>> vaars -> vjaas
>
>These look like cases of metathesis to me: Vr > rV
>More precisely: Vr -> Vj > jV
>
>(V = vowel)
>
>The rule /r/ -> [j] is very common among Eastern and Siberian Turkic
>languages.  So it's not farfetched.
>
>So, e.g., kaars -> kaajs > kjaas
>
>> vaardig (old D. for klaar zijn, cf fertig in German) -> vjarig
>
>I believe that in this case we are dealing with /rr/:
>vardig > varrig > vajrig > vjarig
>
>Compare Lower Elbe Low Saxon:
>vardig ["fa:dIC] > varrig (<fardig>, <farrig>) ["fa:rIC] 'ready', 'done'
>This is a case of d-assimilation, which applies very widely in North
Saxon,
>more commonly after /n/ and /l/ (e.g., _kind_ [kInt] 'child' -> _kinder_
>["kIn3`] <Kinner> 'children', _bild_ [bIlt] 'picture' -> _bilder_ ["bIl3`]
><Biller> 'pictures').
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Moyen, Ingmar!

While your theory may hold more water, it seems you misunderstood me by 
saying:

> The theory of kaars -> *kraas -> *kjaas, as you proposed below, seems
> highly unlikely...

I did not say "kaars -> *kraas -> *kjaas."

What I did say was:

> kaars -> kaajs > kjaas

There's a significant difference between them.

However, I can see how the first part of my explanation may have mislead 
you:

>These look like cases of metathesis to me: Vr > rV
>More precisely: Vr -> Vj > jV

By the same token, I can see the merit of your theory, although "r-deletion" 
can hardly be involved, more likely "r-vocalization":

kejrs > kijrs > kiirs > kiias > kiaas > kjaas

Phonemic:  /kejrs/
Vowel assimilation/raising:  kijrs
Glide assimilation:  kiirs
r-vocalization:  kiias
Length metathesis:  kiaas
"Breaking":  kjaas

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Heather Rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.26 (05) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Germanic *_hamm(j)a_ 'fenced-in area'.
Some Middle Saxon dialects have _ham_ 'fenced-in pasture', 'paddock', and
apparently this is preserved in a few modern dialects.<

We have ' hamm' in place names around here :   Ham bridge = over the river
Teme with water meadows on either side       Homme/Hamm Castle a motte &
bailey Norman defence - now just a mound which defended the ford across the
river at Pudford.

In Ekwall Hamm / homme is given as meaning water meadow or low lying meadow
with an original Fris word meaning enclosure

Heather

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From: Heather Rendall <HeatherRendall at compuserve.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2006.02.26 (02) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>Odd, that. In my dialect it's always stressed on the second syllable. Is
it
an RP/other British dialects thing to stress it on the first? Sounds very
strange to my ear.<

Aren't there two words?

divers with accent on 1st syllable = di' vers      almost like the people
who go under water!!
and di- verse  where the accent fall on the second and the 's' is more
sounded

divers = various, a multiplicity of ...., many

diverse = various but in the sense of different, at variance to each other

Heather 

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