LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.06 (03) [D/E/F]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 06 July 2006 * Volume 03
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From: 'Stellingwerfs Eigen' <info at stellingwerfs-eigen.nl>
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology'

Henno wrote:
> Sure, the pronounciation of "kynders" is "kiendes" (to use a
> Dutchified spelling), but "kynders"
> is the official Town Frisian spelling (from the dictionary), that
> reflects the etymology...

Hoewel inderdaad de Afûk en KNAW in hun woordenboeken volhouden dat het mv.
van kyn kynders weze mut zie ik toch echt veul meer 'kyndes' as 'kynders',
ok in skreven tekst. Volgens mij is het dan ook niet alleen het *huidige*
woordenboek dat de etymology 'reflects', denk o.a. aan de tussen-n en de
verschillen in het huidige Nl. groene en witte boekje, maar ook het
alledaags gebruik. Quote uit de weblogger van een gedreven Sneker:
"Fanmòrren met myn kyndes naar de Weduwe Joustra op ut Kleinsaan weest. We
hewwe dizze week un projekt over ferslaving. Ik docht, dan mutte dy kyndes
òk siën wêr de drank maakt wurdt." En ter zijde: Sinds de nieuwe Friese
stavering (begin negentiger jaren 1981-'82?) schrijf ik nagenoeg geen letter
Fries meer, domweg omdat het sinds die tijd behoorlijk verhollandst is. Als
ik het wel zou doen dan zou ik wellicht voor de oude stavering kiezen. Ook
de kreet 'Stadsfries' is uitgevonden door - met alle respect - hoog
geschoolden. Zowel honderd jaar geleden als vandaag de dag zijn de
verschillen zowel in spraak als geschrift tussen de verschillende steden
groot. Maar ja, wat is groot... Zelfs in ons superkleine Stellingwerf hebben
we ondanks maar 1 woordenboek regelmatig te maken met soms wel tot 5
verschillende schrijfwijzen. Niet alles wat in de krant staat is altijd
(helemaal) waar.
Mei freonlike groetnis uut Fryslân,
Piet Bult

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From: 'Kevin and Cheryl Caldwell' <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.05 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
>
> So we seem to have a "Saxon-wide" tendency to leave _man_ unmarked after
> numerals.
>
> Isn't that the case in English also, at least when in adjectival position?
> "A
> three man crew" (but "a crew of three men")?

Yes, and not just with "man": a 10-foot pole, a 52-card deck, a two-story house,
a three-day weekend...

Note also, when talking about lengths or heights, we say, "I'm five foot ten" for
"I'm five feet, ten inches tall." Usually this is only used when inches follow,
otherwise it is, "I'm six feet." But in some dialects, this would be, "I'm six foot."

> Aren't there some English dialects in which "fishes" is a legitimate
> plural form?
> I believe I've heard it used.

Yes. This usage is preserved in a few places in the King James Version of the
Bible, as in the feeding of the 5,000, where Jesus fed the crowd with "five
loaves and two fishes." Once again I remind you all not to underestimate the
impact of the KJV on modern English usage, especially in the American South.

Kevin Caldwell

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology'

  Beste Gabriele,

You wrote:

> Same in German:
>
> Alle Mann an Deck!
> Wir waren vier Mann hoch.
> Fünfzehn Mann auf des toten Mannes Kiste...
>
> Since this usage is found mainly in nautical surroundings, it should be
> assumed that it is Lowlandic in origin.

Your example brings me to the very name for Germany in French "Allemagne", which
is derived from the tribe of the Alamanni, a name that was supposedly given to
the Swabians by foreigners in the ninth century. How the Swabians called
themselves before the ninth century doesn't seem to be clear, but it may well be
something along the lines of _ala-manni_ in my opinion. Given that they used to
live around the river Elbe before migrating south, this could make the Romance
name for Germany Lowlandic in origin.

By the way, in Brabantish there's only one real word for _everybody_ (E),
_iedereen_ (D), namely:

_alleman_

Kind greetings (to alleman),

Luc Hellinckx

PS: It's gonna be the southern part of the Holy Roman Empire that will play the
finals on sunday *s*.

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From: 'Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong' <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L 'Morphology' 2006.07.05 (04) [E]

Hey Morphologists,( and ditty singers ), May I add "Alle man van Neerlands
stam...." to the collection of instances where the plural of D 'man' is the
same as the single.
Also: In Dutch we rarely use plurals of "nouns of measure" when they are
accompanied with numbers. "Ik koop twee pond kaas - pond/ponden" and
"Hij woont al tien jaar in Brabant - jaar/jaren" (where in English you also
speak about a two year old).
"Het is drie kilometer lopen naar het station kilometer- kilometers.
Dit boek kost 23 Euro - Euro/Euros. But...
er liggen drie Euros op tafel ( Three individual Euros )
BTW Ron, I love both contributions of "vaerse" that you made. Would it be
possible to point me at a live rendition somewhere so that I can add them to
my morning shower routine, which is in dire need of an update? Jacqueline

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Excellent one, Luc and Jacqueline.  Come to think of it all the above applies in
Low Saxon also, is at least a tendency.

_Alle man_ (_allemann_) is also used, though it is not the only way of saying it.
 It *is* the choice in certain types of contexts, such as _Alle man an bourd!_
'Everybody on board!'  It is also used in German.  I'm not sure if it spread from
Low Saxon via Northern German, though I think that's likely.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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