LL-L 'History' 2006.07.12 (06) [E]

Wed Jul 12 23:10:48 UTC 2006

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L O W L A N D S - L * 12 July 2006 * Volume 06
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.11 (10) [E/German]

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L 'History'
>
...clip...

> On a sidenote: Charlemagne may have been one of the
> few rulers of his day who
> could read. Most of the other kings were illiterate.
>
> Kind greetings,
>
> Luc Hellinckx

Hello,

Yes, he could read.
Just for the record: if my memory serves me,
Charlemagne wanted to have a real court in Cologne,
i.e. with a dignified royal library.
For this purpose he made collect (and write down) all
manuscripts containing Germanic heroic songs.
But when his son took over (his son was not called the
Great, but the Pious), his son made burn the complete
Germanic Library.

Ouch!

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: 'Tom Carty' <cartyweb at hotmail.com> 
Subject: LL-L 'History' That Beats Banagher

The phrase that beats banagher was often attributed to the height of
Banagher hill in Offaly: but growing up there it does not seem so high.

Does anyone know of any variations of this phrase?

Tom

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From: 'Elsie Zinsser' <ezinsser at icon.co.za> 
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.12 (02) [E]

Hi all,

And of course, here in South Africa, white Afrikaans speakers were, for as
long as
I remember, been routinely referred to as 'Dutchmen'. I still know a few,
(one a Du Plessis
with Huguenot ancestry), with the nickname 'Dutchie'.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser

***
L O W L A N D S - L * 24.APR.2004 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

We have on occasion talked about historical "Dutch" (including Flemish,
Zeelandic, Brabantish and Westerlauwer Frisian?) immigration to what is now
Germany, with particular concentrations of "Dutch" immigrants in what are
now Eastern Germany, Northern Poland and Kaliningrad (German KÃƒÂ¶nigsberg, a
Russian-administered enclave not contiguous with Russia proper). Perceived
salient features and historical contributions and roles of these "Dutch"
settlers seem to be nicely reflected in the meanings of the word _Hollender_
~ _Hollander_ ("Hollander," "Dutch") in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects
of Germany:

_Hollender_ () ~ _Hollander_ ():

(1) person of, from or with ancestry in Dutch-speaking areas

(2) tenant dairy farmer (mostly in Mecklenburg and Pomerania)

(3) Dutch-style windmill

(4) wooden skate with a metal gliding edge

(5) Dutch-style clog (wooden shoe) -- in some dialects also called _klomp_
or _klump_ (< Dutch _klomp_), as opposed to "indigenous" _hulten TÃƒ1/4ffel_
~
_holten TÃƒ1/4ffel_ ("wooden slipper") with a leather upper, surviving in the
form of Scandinavian clogs

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: In some dialects a person can also be called _Hollandsman_
(). The female equivalent tends to be _Hollendsch(e)_
() ~ _Hollandsch(e)_ ().

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From: WALTERG580 at aol.com    
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.12 (02) [E]

I don't post often but thought I would add to this thread.
My people were Pennsylvania Dutch, who did not actually immigrate from the
Netherlands, but from Northern Germany, when their English neighbors would ask
what language they were speaking, they would reply Deutsche. and the English
misinterpreted this as Dutch.
Thereby causing all sorts of confusion. So possibly some of these terms
referencing, Dutch may be due to this confusion at least in the USA. 

| Walter Gamble |

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry at saxnot.com>     
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.07.11 (10) [E/German]

Luc Hellinckx wrote:
>
> On a sidenote: Charlemagne may have been one of the few rulers of his day who
> could read. Most of the other kings were illiterate.
>
Actually, he couldn't, say at least 2 books about him.

kind regards,
Henry

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>     
Subject: History

Henry:

> Actually, he couldn't, say at least 2 books about him.

This is what I remember being taught too.  We have to bear in mind that in those
days the vast majority of people could not read and write, and this includes most
political leaders.  When we read that this and that leader commissioned the
writing of a certain text or liked or banned some text or that he (rarely she)
spoke this and that language besides his (or her) own and spoke with a certain
person from another country, this is quite likely to mean that the text was read
to him (or her), he (or she) dictated it and someone (likely a monk scribe)
interpreted or translated between languages.  I believe that this went for
knowledge of Latin as well.  This is not to say that illiterate people couldn't
have had at least some smattering of Latin or another foreign language (such as
for church and for trading), but it would have been good enough for literary
purposes, given that Latin was taught mostly from books.

Unless I find out that a certain medieval ruler received formal education I
assume he (or she) was illiterate and that historiographies just made them sound
more educated than they really were.

Remember also that people didn't live very long at that time, that between
martial arts trainingand various manouvers to get to the top (and in the case of
women being locked in and spending all their time praying and prettying
themselves) they didn't have much time.  Also, it was quite accepted that writing
and reading was the stuff of clerics; it was expected of no one else and being
illiterate was not detrimental to anyone else's reputation, and a ruler who was
literate would have been so notable that he would have been known as something
like "Scholar King" (and some would have thought he was a geek or nerd).  Those
were feudal times in which a ruler had scores of lackeys (without any rights)
serve hand and foot on him and his family, taste their food, bathe them, dress
and undress them, tuck them in, and goodness knows what else.  Being read to was
probably the least they expected.

It appears that Jewish minorities were perceived as a real challenge to the
status quo then, that their customary book learning and multilingualism (at least
among men) was perceived as a threat, given also that this gave them a leg up
commercially.  Some rulers took advantage of this by utilizing Jews' talents and
learning (as "court Jews"), though this could be dangerous for the Jewish
communities in cases of political changes.

I understand that it did not become truly customary for rulers and their families
to be literate until the end of the Middle Ages and in the Renaissance.  In
Britain, I believe, it was definitely in place by the Tudor era.  Then, Elizabeth
II was probably at the forefront of women with considerable learning, including
foreign languages.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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