LL-L "Language varieties" 2006.03.25 (02) [E]

Sat Mar 25 22:18:16 UTC 2006

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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   L O W L A N D S - L * 25 March 2006 * Volume 02
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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L Urban Frisian (E)

Dear all, but especially the web team,

I have just been looking for something on the website (for the first
time in ages) and wanted to congratulate the team on how good it is
looking, and how easy to use it is.

I got the answer to my question about Zeeuws but I now have another one:
when was Urban Frisian first written (or written about in another
language).

With best wishes,

Pat
-- 
Pat Reynolds
pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk
   "It might look a bit messy now,
                    but just you come back in 500 years time"
   (T. Pratchett)

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Hi, Pat, and thanks!

I don't have the answer for you, rather a question:

Which website are you talking about:

the general site (http://www.lowlands-l.net/)
or the anniversary site (http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/)
or both together (which are technically speaking one)?

Especially Mathieu and I have been working pretty hard on them, and we've 
had a lot of help.

I'm curious on which page you found a reference to Urban Frisian (_Stedsk_ < 
W. Fr. _Stêdsk_ 'urban', or _Sted(s)frysk_ 'urban Frisian').  I'm not sure, 
but my view is that it is Dutch on Westerlauwer Frisian substrates, the 
equivalent of (urban) Missingsch in Germany (German on Low Saxon substrates.

Being fascinated by "blatantly"* "mixed" languages (* given that *all* 
languages are "mixed"), I am very interested in Urban Frisian and also in 
"Western Frisian" (_Westfries_*), the latter of which is apparently Dutch on 
Frisian substrates as well.   I sure wish we had versions of the wren story 
in them, preferably with sound files, especially in Liwadders, the one of 
Ljouwert/Leeuwarden, the capital of Fryslân.  Other well-known dialects are 
Bòlswadders (of Boalsert/Bolswarden), Dòkkumers (of Dokkum), Franekers (of 
Frjentsjer/Franeker), Harlingers (of Harns/Harlingen), Snekers (of 
Snitser/Sneker), and Stavers (of Starum/Stavoren).  There are others.  They 
are similar creatures to the Low Saxon varieties of Fryslân, Groningen 
(province), Emsland, Oldenburg, Eastern Friesland, Wangerooge, Heligoland 
and Northern Friesland, including formerly Frisian-speaking areas farther 
south, all of which have Frisian substrates.  However, since, unlike Dutch, 
Low Saxon is no longer a power language but a minority/regional language 
like Frisian, people tend not to see that they are all birds of a feather.

[* Because of this seeming misnomer, the technically correct name "Western 
Frisian" for Westerlauwer Frisian is rejected by most Netherlanders.]

We do have two Missingsch versions of the story (under "German"):

Bremen Missingsch (by Utz, without audio):
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=missingsch-bremen1

Hamburg Missingsch (by me, with audio):
http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=missingsch-hamburg1

Now, Missingsch is greatly moribund and will soon be extinct.  I'd consider 
it a miracle if you found a speaker that would even vaguely qualify as 
young.  (These varieties have very low prestige in most local quarters, 
being associated with the "extreme proletariate.")  For this reason I find 
it all the more important that we make sure they are represented in our 
anniversary line-up, preferably with audio, as "swan songs," so to speak.  I 
would love to include Berlin German.  Technically speaking, it, too, is a 
Missingsch variety, though most people are not aware of it.  The 
Brandenburgish Low Saxon varieties of Berlin became extinct a pretty long 
time ago, but Berlin's Missingsch has prevailed.  It used to predominate in 
lower- and middle-class societies and became synonymous with the _Berliner 
Schnauze_, the notorious yet admired "big mouth" of the stereotypical 
street-smart, feisty, irreverent Berliner.  (This is why it took the place 
of Cockney in the German production of _My Fair Lady_.)

I think it would be great if we could add more urban "mixtures" to the 
anniversary presentation.  Our Larry kindly joined Utz and me by coming up 
with a Pittsburgh English version 
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/anniversary/index.php?page=english-pittsburgh). 
English of Atlanta, Charleston, Savannah, New York, Boston, Chicago, 
Philadelphia, Minneapolis, Nashville, New Orleans, Austin, Salt Lake City 
(Oh, my heck!), Santa Fé, St. Louis, Cleveland, or Quebec City, anyone? 
Liverpudlian?  Dialects of Birmingham, Bristol, Hull, Leeds, Manchester, 
Newcastle, Belfast ...?  Sydneysider English?  English of Singapore, Mumbai, 
Colombo, Kuala Lumpur, Manila?  Weanerisch (Viennese)?  Schtuehgatterisch 
(of Stuttgart)?  Frangfottsch (of Frankfurt/Mayen)?  Züridytsch (of Zurich)? 
Læpzscher Dætsch (of Leipzig)?  Flensboägä Petuhtantendeutsch (also a 
Missingsch, of Flensburg)?  Sønderslesvigsk Dansk (Saxonized and Germanized 
Danish of Southern Schleswig)?

As for the anniversary presentation ...  Well, in large part thanks to 
Mathieu with help from me, an even more handsome version will be unveiled in 
time for our 11 anniversary in May!  And it's going to be more 
user-friendly!

So here's another appeal, folks.  I know many of you have planned to come up 
with translations, audio files and members' introductions.  Time to get 
cracking on that before I start using that dreaded Australian expression 
with the finger again.  ;-)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Pat, sorry if I hijacked your message.  As you can tell, it doesn't 
take much to trigger an anniversary appeal attack.  ;-) 

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