LL-L "Translation" 2006.05.06 (04) [E]

Sun May 7 02:10:36 UTC 2006

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   L O W L A N D S - L * 06 May 2006 * Volume 04
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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Translation" 2006.05.05 (01) [D/E]

Dear All:

Subject: LL-L "Translation"

This is a fine string & so many have contributed, & make bold to join in:

Informality in speech is by no means exclusively American, nor does it
necessarily reflect a bourgois perspective. I bet an American 'preppy' will
freely refer to his or his sweetheart's oh so old-money parents as his or
her 'Mom & Dad', notwithstanding a naughty context. Across the 'Pond' a girl
of the same class will refer to her parents in company, in third person as
'my Mummy & Daddy'. I have heard it myself. In Victorian times she would
have said, 'Dear Mama & Papa'; you can read it yourself.

All language has a formal or informal context, & within both there is a
deferential mode & an intimate mode. Now _I_ find talk between lovers tends
to drift from the formal & deferential to informal & intimate, even
overstepping the bounds of what I find decent, into baby talk. It disturb my
confidence in the relationship if it were otherwise.

A ballad of a lover's trysting, one feeling for verisimilitude, must
necessarily do the same & throughout the history they have. The Song of
Songs, for one example (in the original), does not by any means hold to the
level of 'Court Hebrew', & how can it?

Here is an example, a line from a later age of lyric poetry, a Mozarabic
kharja from Spain:

Non dormiray, Mamma'
a rayo di manyana -
bon Abu 'l-Qasim
la fage de matrana!

I'll not sleep, Mamma
in the morning's ray -
good Abu l'Qasim
is the face of day!

Now she might have used, in this heteroglot culture, Madre, Umm or Imi.
Would it have sounded better, been more true to life?

The Spanish karjas, as the scholar Peter Dronk points out, "show a wide
range in expression & quality. At the one end of the scale, poetically, are
the seemingly artless exclamations & cries of a girl in love:"

He quotes:
"Que faray mamma?
Meu 'l-habib est ad yana
Que farayu, o que serad di mibi, habibi?
Non de tolgas de mibi!"

What'll I do, Mamma?
my lover's at the door!
What'll I do, or what'll become of me, beloved?
Do not withdraw from me!

It is abundantly clear from the third, fourth _& succeeding lines_ that the
'Mamma' addressed is only figuratively present, unlike her lover. In another
place her mother is probably present, & is addressed more formally:
"Alsa-me min hali -
mon hali qad bare!
Que faray, ya'Ummi?-
Faneq bad lebare!"

Take me from this plight -
My plight is desperate!
What'll I do, Mother?-
The falcon is about to snatch!

Ummi is the Arabic for 'my Mother', in those days in that place the formal,
courtly tongue.

One could go on through the ages, ringing the changes of tongue & style, but
I hope for your lover's sake you will all agree that all is not well between
you when when she addresses you as 'Sir', & refers to your father otherwise
than as 'Dad' (edited for dialect, period & place), or he you as 'Ma'am', &
your mother as 'your mother'.

Yrs,
Mark

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Translation

Haai, Mark!

Thanks for tactfully revisiting the scene of the cooled-off coconut battle, 
also for widening the vista and for bringing into play that fine Iberian 
Visigoth Christian and Jewish tradition of the Mozarabic _kharja_ (_jarcha_) 
that left an indellable imprint on the Ladino, Shuadit and Iberian Romani 
song traditions, an unfortunately neglected European art form.

> One could go on through the ages, ringing the changes of tongue & style, 
> but
> I hope for your lover's sake you will all agree that all is not well 
> between
> you when when she addresses you as 'Sir',

Well, but it can also be a device to pretend deference and distance in cases 
of "illicit" dalliance, real or proposed; e.g. (11th century)

ميو سيدي ابراهيم
يا تو ومٌة* دلجة
فنتة مب
د نختة

Mio sîdî Ïbrâhîm
yâ tú uemme* dolge
fente mib
de nohte

My lord Ibrahim,
Thou sweet man,*
Come to me
At night!

[* in some traditions نوةمنة _nuemne_ 'name']

> Ummi is the Arabic for 'my Mother', in those days in that place the 
> formal,
> courtly tongue.

And at the same time you could, in the same tradition and often just as 
deferentially, use مترة _matre_ and ممٌة _mamma_; e.g., (12th century)

يا مترة مية الرخيمة
ا ريٌو د منينة
بون عبو الخجّج
لة فجة د مترنة

Ya matre mia al-rahima
a rayyo de manyana
bon Abu-l-Haggag
la fage de matrana

O my loving mother,
In the gleam of morning
Good Abu-l-Haggag ...
His face of dawn!

مٌة ايُ هبيي
سو الجومٌلٌة سقرلٌة
القوولٌّو البو
ا بوكلٌة خمرلٌة

Mamma ayy habibe
so al-gummella saqrella
el-quwello albo
e bokella hamrella

Mother (mom?), what a lover!
Below his yellow curls
The white neck
And little red mouth!

On the other hand, in nineteenth century bourgeois German circles it would 
have been unthinkable for a child (including adult child) to call or refer 
to his or her father and mother anything other than _Herr Papa_ and _Frau 
Mama_, with _Sie_, the polite second person pronoun.  That was the only 
option.  In authentic North Saxon dialects -- and I still maintain this --  
the only options are, at least used to be, _vadder_ (<Vadder>) and _mouder_ 
~ _mudder_ (<Moder> ~ <Mudder>).  They can be used to address parents 
formally or informally, meaning "father," "mother," "dad" or "mom," 
depending on the tone.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron 

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