LL-L "Delectables" 2006.05.09 (03) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 09 May 2006 * Volume 03
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From: "Tally Beck" <tally at tallybeck.com>
Subject: LL-L "Kinship terms" 2006.05.08 (09) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> I think I saw more than one American movie back in the days (twentieth
> century), where sons were addressing their father with "Yes, Sir" and
> "No, Sir". Whether that was meant to be humorous, I can't recall...but I
> doubt it<

In Dickens most middle class children are portrayed as calling their father
'Sir' and I would also go as far as saying that most 19th and early century
public schoolboys would address all male adults including family as 'Sir'.

Heather

From: Tally Beck tally at tallybeck.com

It's still extremely common in the American South.

Tally

---------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Kinship terms" 2006.05.08 (01) [E]

Luc Hellinckx wrote:
  "I think I saw more than one American movie back in the days (twentieth
century),
where sons were addressing their father with "Yes, Sir" and"No, Sir".

  It always sounds militaristic to me. Such usages are extremely rare in
all Irish,
British and Australian Englishes to my knowledge.

  What's more, from what I do know of the US Englishes, I would say it's
more of a
southern thing - and I thought it was because so many southerners served
in the US
armed forces.

  Go raibh maith agat,

  Críostóir.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Kinship terms

Hello, Tally!

I believe this was your "speaking" debut.  Thanks for taking the plunge
soon after coming on board.  Also kudos and a friendly welcome to you!

And hi, Críostóir!  Nice to hear from you again.

I, too, associate this "sir" thing for one's father with a militaristic
atmosphere, certainly where it applies in the North.  As a post-war
German, I have quite a personal problem with anything of the sort.  I am
not so sure about it in the American South.  I rather suspect that it goes
back to heads of households of colonial estates (plantations etc.) holding
the role of a commander or CEO of sorts, the supreme chief of the
operation, with his sons to be groomed for this role (and often for
military positions as well), his daughters under the rule of his wife, and
the house and field slaves under everyone's command, being to them
"Master," "Mistress," "Young Master" and "Miss."  Those were more than
families; they were corporations.

As far as I can tell, "sir" and "ma'am" are used extremely rarely in
Australia, addressing *any*one.  It is avoided, and many Australians may
never use such terms ever.  You hear them mostly in posh hotels and
restaurants with international clienteles.  It's just not a part of
Australian culture and attitude, smacks of social hierarchy, authority and
aristocracy, all of which are very much disliked by most Australians.  In
fact, when I moved from Australia to the United States I felt very
uncomfortable when I heard people use "sir" and "ma'am," and I cringed
when I everytime heard press representatives address the president as "Mr.
President" and "sir."  It sounded so submissive and suck-uppish to me
then.  I still don't like it, but I can live with it now, have been known
to address strangers that way myself, especially elderly people.  However,
hearing children address their fathers as "sir" still gives me the creeps,
even though I try to be tolerant of the culture.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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