LL-L "Terms of address" 2006.05.09 (04) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 09 May 2006 * Volume 04
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From: "Global Moose Translations" <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2006.05.09 (03) [E]

Ron wrote:
>I felt very
>uncomfortable when I heard people use "sir" and "ma'am," and I cringed
>when I everytime heard press representatives address the president as "Mr.
>President" and "sir."  It sounded so submissive and suck-uppish to me
>then.  I still don't like it, but I can live with it now, have been known
>to address strangers that way myself, especially elderly people.  However,
>hearing children address their fathers as "sir" still gives me the creeps,
<even though I try to be tolerant of the culture.

Aaaaa-ha! So why can't I feel the same way about the ubiquitous "mom"? This
is also an expression of a cultural aspect that gives me the creeps.

Being occasionally addressed as "ma'am" in the States struck me as odd and
made me feel really old, although I was only in my thirties then. But most
of all, it made me feel like I was being spoken to by Hoss Cartwright!

So, Reinhard-san, what about formal Japanese forms of address? Do they give
you the same creepy feeling, or can you tolerate them better, possibly
because Japanese culture is sufficiently exotic different from are own that
it doesn't strike a nerve? Lower Saxon tends to be extremely informal, after
all.

Gabriele Kahn

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Terms of address

Hi, Gabriele!

I never proposed that you should feel a certain way.  Let's not go there
again!  _Schwamm drüber!_

There's a difference here.  You reject the term "mom" ~ "mum" in general,
i.e., throughout the English language.  What I was talking about is social
differences *within* the English language and the feelings they can arouse
among transplants.  To most Americans "sir" and "ma'am" are fine, while
most Australians are uncomfortable with them.  Furthermore, as I said, I
do accept "sir" and "ma'am" now, within the American context, especially
where these are used as expressions of respect/politeness rather than
expressions of submission (which is a personal call to make).  I was
talking about the transition from Australian to American society.  The
"creepy" thing has to do with discomfort with political attitudes and with
what from an Australian viewpoint seems like rampant American political
submissiveness and complacency, lack of "spunk" and "chutzpah," and that
dose of irreverence that is an Australian expression of distrust of formal
authority (possibly going back to disdain of British power among
convicts).

Japanese culture is very interesting to me but not as "exotic" as you seem
to expect.  After all I've lived in Japanese and also with Japanese people
outside Japan.  The particles さん _-san_ versus 様 _-sama_ after names
feel rather neutral to me, the latter more respectful, in an American
context much like calling someone "Mr." or "Ms." instead of using their
first names.  It's a default if the relationship between the speaker and
listener is not yet fully established.  Using å
ˆç”Ÿ _sensei_ (from
Chinese "first-born" > "teacher") after a name seems fine to me, too, if
the person involved is genuinely perceived to have a teacher or mentor
role, at least potentially.

None of us can escape emotional reactions, even while trying to be
accepting of other cultures, for none of us travels without baggage.  I
have no real quarrels with Japanese terms of address, but I do have
certain private quarrels with sexism and its linguistic manifestations,
such as old-fashioned women's language in stark contrast to what often
feels like men's rudeness, which traditionally was considered masculine
and powerful.  And, yes, I have problems with social hierarchies,
especially with rude male Japanese bosses.  And I have lots of company
there.  Social differences in the Japanese language are slowly fading away
as well.  I recently watched a documentary outlining American and Japanese
students' interprestations of pictures that dealt with groups and
individuals, the Japanese focussing on the groups and the Americans
focussing on the individuals.  That tells it all.  It's not a matter of
right or wrong.  Furthermore, these linguistically expressed interpersonal
dynamics pervade the entire Japanese language.  So there are no internal
variations and comparisons, such as use versus avoidance of "sir" and
"ma'am" in different English-speaking societies.

Cheerio!
Reinhard/Ron

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