LL-L 'Customs' 2006.11.15 (04) [E]

Fri Nov 17 00:02:33 UTC 2006

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L O W L A N D S - L * 16 November 2006 * Volume 04
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From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz' [karl-heinz.lorenz at gmx.net]
Subject: LL-L 'Names' 2006.11.15 (02) [E, German]

Thank you Ron.

Given a LS movement would get stronger and stronger moving towards secession
and they'd claim for the name "Saxony" without the "Low-/Neder-" in front of
it, there would be animosities to a certain extent. Comparable to Macedonia
in Greece and former Yougoslavia, if (Low-) Saxony demands from
Meissnisch-Sachsen to name themselves as "Former Kingdom of Saxony".

But I think this won't happen, because you'll still use neder/neer/low as
prefix. And there is also this ambigous meaning of neder/low. So I just came
up with "Hanseatic" because here on this list it happens time and again that
the Low Saxons complain about this situation, sort of: "De Sassen hebbt
klaut use Namen un so hebbt doon de Neerlanners." And so I thought
"Hanseatic" would be a nomenclature, which all people in this concerned
Northern Germany could identify with.

About Carinthia and its Slavonic minority: Even the Austrians outside
Carinthia don't understand that. So I try to explain the position of the
German speaking Carinthian. I think the point is, that nobody in Carinthia
including the Slovenes wanted to live in a Communist Yougoslavia. And for
what happened after WW II you must bear in mind, that Yougaslavia dislodged
ethnic Germans and Austrians, whereas Austria did not with their Slovenes!
The Carinthian point of view is kind of: "Yougoslavia didn't even give our
people a chance to be a minority in your countries and forced our people out
of their homelands. We didn't do that with you, but don't expect us to
foster your language and culture!" I know this attitude is wrong, and
Slovenes should get their bilingual road signs etc. (Just to be understood:
They still have bilingual signs, but they want more of them.). But I think
it helps to understand a little the attitude of the Carinthians.

Only the historic Hanseatic cities indentify with "Hanseatic", you wrote.
Yes I assumed that, but terms can also be reinterpreted. About past colonial
glories I can't imagine, that the Hanseatic League stands for it, as they
they never did really aim to establish a Hanseatic state according to
international law.

Regards,
Karl-Heinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Names 

Servus, Karl-Heinz!

As I said earlier, I really appreciate you even thinking about these issues and
on top of it brainstorming for alternatives.

As you noted yourself, the people of the north have long stopped recapturing
"Saxon" as their name, though it took them a long time to get over it.  This was
prior to full-steam-ahead Germanization.  "Saxon" is only occasionally used in
historical and typological contexts.

> "De Sassen hebbt klaut use Namen un so hebbt doon de Neerlanners."

For your edification:

"De Baben-Sassen hebbt u(n)s(en) Naam klaut, un de Nedderlanners (hebbt dat) ook
(daan)."

But how have the Dutch stolen our name?  I'm not aware of that.  Are you
referring to "Low German" as a group typology name for Low Saxon and Low
Franconian varieties?  Are you referring to Low Saxon speakers in the eastern
part of the Netherlands?  The latter haven't stolen anything either, certainly
not our name, because it's theirs too.  As far as I am concerned (much to the
chagrin of some people in Germany), they speak varieties of the same language and
are on a linguistic and cultural continuum with people in Northern Germany, are
thus our direct relatives, and, yes, they have historic Hanseatic cities too. 
It's just that an international border came to be put between us and that
Neerlandization vs Germanization have sought to alienate us from each other, with
a certain measure of success, also in people's minds.  As I said, "international
borders are becoming invisible, but the borders of the mind still loom large."

Thanks for the elucidation about Carinthia's Slovenes and their not always so
neighborly neighbors.  Obviously, countries usually pay double if they have an
imperialist past.  When it came to driving Austrian and German minorities out of
Yugoslavia, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc., it was in large part a case of pay-back
time.  Germany did not send its large Polish minority east of the border as an
act of ethnic cleansing in retaliation for ethnic cleansing -- perhaps only
because its position was weak, not because of nobility of spirit.  Retaliation
and revenge have been at the core of all animosity, also on the part of formal
Christians whose teachings squarely oppose revenge.  Watch tonight's news and see
revenge replayed over and over again.

Well, Karl-Heinz, to some degree the Hanseatic League was a colonizing body. Very
often they established trading posts against the wishes of the populations of
faraway lands, and then they ruled the places by means of material wealth and by
making the locals and their economies dependent on their graces.  Their economic
clout was often so mighty that they got to call the shots, either indirectly
through indebted local councilmen and rulers, or directly by stacking town
councils, so much so that once in a while Scandinavian individuals would try to
get laws passed that prohibited the existence of Saxon majorities in
decision-making bodies.  With money power came cultural power, and a vehicle of
this was imposition of the foreigners' language, not only as an international
lingua franca but also as the key to elite and learning.  This is why Middle
Saxon practically transformed Scandinavian language varieties and also greatly
impacted the lexical inventories of Estonian, Livonian and Kashubian.  The
League's initial purpose was to defend merchants against pirates.  At its zenith,
the League dominated the Baltic Sea and all nations at its coasts.  Hanseatic
cities were more than trading posts.  They represented strings of commercial
power fortresses that among other things kept the potentially rebellious natives
at bay.  Especially the Hanseatic cities at the south coast of the Baltic Sea
then developed into Saxon enclaves, later into German enclaves, and German power
emanated from there into the hinterland.

Saxon merchants were not always welcome, but that didn't deter them one bit.

A letter from 1384:

Vruntlike grote to voren. An de bederven lude borgermesters und rat to Revel, de
do ich, Magnus van Alen, vruntliken groten.
   Item danke ich ju vor all woldat, de gi mi deden, do ich was to Revel.
   Item schole gi weten dat Bent Bagbe und An... des kuniges bunder, quemen to mi
und klageden, dat se weren unmaten Ã¶vel handelt sunder ere schult; se wÃ¶rden s...
hen und er bart ut getogen, und worden bi dem barde let of de strate und worden
set in de hechte. Dit klagede so ummaten sere und beden mi dat ich et scholde
scriven to des rikes rade und to Boo Jonson und to mine heren her Karl. Nu en wil
ich nicht so scriven, er ich wet wes ju hir ane witlich si; dat scrivet mi to.
God si mit ju, und gebeidet to mi alse to juweme steden vrunde.
   Gescreven to Wiborch, under minen ingesegel. 
   H. Magnus van Alen, voget to Wiborch.

My translation:

Friendly greetings first of all. To the righteous people, mayor and council of
Reval [Tallinn, Estonia], whom I, Magnus van Alen, salute cordially.
   Item: I thank you for all the favours that you did me whilst I was in Reval.
   Item: I should have you know that Bent Bagbe and An..., the King's bondsmen,
came to me and complained that they had been treated cruelly for no fault of
their own; they were [taken] to ..., and their beards were pulled out, and they
were led off the street by their beards and put in jail. About this they
complained so bitterly and requested that I write to the council of the realm and
to Boo Jonson and to my superior, Master Karl. Now I do not wish to [write =] do
so before I know you are informed of this. Please write to me to confirm this.
God be with you, and do command me as your faithful friend.
   Written in Viborg [Viipuri, Finland] under my seal.
   H. Magnus van Alen, Overseer of Viborg.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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