LL-L 'Language use' 2006.11.17 (01) [E/LS/German]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 17 November 2006 * Volume 01
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From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz' [Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net]
Subject: LL-L 'Customs' 2006.11.15 (04) [E]

Moin Ron, you wrote:
> Servus, Karl-Heinz!
>
> > "De Sassen hebbt klaut use Namen un so hebbt doon de Neerlanners."
>
> For your edification:
>
> "De Baben-Sassen hebbt u(n)s(en) Naam klaut, un de Nedderlanners (hebbt
> dat) ook
> (daan)."

I tried and thanks for your edification. My original version was: "De Sassen
hebbt us Naamen stolen, un de Neerlanners ook." Then I changed it into: "...use
Namen klaut un de Neerlanners hebbt dat ok daon", which comes pretty close to the
correct (your) version. I took "use(n)" because I supposed that there could be a
variety that lefts out the "n" at the end, just as in many German dialects and in
Dutch. And additionally I thought I bring the whole thing into a more English
Syntax: "... and so have done the Dutch", although I'm not sure if it was better
to express it in past tense instead of present perfect. And for the spelling:
I've seen "doon" or "daon" and "ok" more often then "daan" or "ook". Your
spelling in this case is Dutch based and I'd prefer that too, but most German
Platt-writers don't.

> But how have the Dutch stolen our name? I'm not aware of that. …

I don't believe that the Dutch have stolen the name, not at all! But I've read it
some days ago here on lowlands-l. Maybe I misunderstood something, because, you
know, I'm not so proficient in LS. So tell me please if I mistook something:

> Nedderlanners (bi de Dialekten vun mi un Jonny is dat -dd- wegfullen, also
Neerlanners) is dat Woort, wat ji bruken wüllt, aver nich köönt, wegen de
driesten Hollanners, de sik > dat för ehren Staat ünnern Nagel reten hebbt
(kunnen ja nich Hollanners nehmen, denn > harrn de Nich-Hollanners in ehren Staat
wedder opmuckt). Is aver ok verdüvelt mit disse > Naams ;-) Allens nich so licht to.
> Schöne Gröten
> Marcus Buck

> From: R. F. Hahn [[log in to unmask]]
> Subject: Names
> Marcus:
> > Is aver ok verdüvelt mit disse Naams ;-) Allens nich so licht to.

> Dat magst wul seggen.
> Goud twey hunnerd jaar hebt de echten Sassen bruukt dat tou verknusen dat de
hogen luyd' > jüm er naam as hochtydgaav' na suyden weg-geven harren, un 'n paar
hebt dat ny nich > > verknuust.
> In de Ingelsche Wiki wardt dat mit up-
>noymd:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_of_Saxony
> In de Duytsche un Platduytsche Wiki (noch) nich:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsen
>http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassen_%28Bundsland%29
> Kumpelmenten,
> Reinhard/Ron

Hab ich da was falsch verstanden? Das steht doch oben: "Nedderlanners ... de sik
dat för ehren Staat ünnern Nagel reten hebbt ..." (Niederländer ... die sich
das für ihren Staat untern Nagel gerissen haben ...)

Liebe Grüße
Karl-Heinz

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From: 'Karl-Heinz Lorenz' [Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net]
Subject: LL-L 'Customs' 2006.11.15 (04) [E]

Hi again,

There is another thing I’d like to add: I think that LS lacks a certain degree of
urbanity. I was several times in Hamburg and I can tell you, it was only twice I
heard LS spoken in real life. You know, I did not search for it, but this is
striking. In the country the situation must be better, unless I’d say and I try
another: “De Spraok is beina doot!”

I think even before 1945 or 1900 the people were told to speak (Standard-)German,
but it worked only in the towns. I imagine a guy in those days, in a rural
community, a fictional village I call it “Kleinpoppenbütteldorp” somewhere in the
“Pampa” of Lower Saxony talking slowly in a stoically rural manner (I try
another, a more High-German based): “De Lehrers seggt altied ick mutt nich Platt
snacken, maar wat geiht meck dat an!” The last clause cited from Wilhelm Busch’s
“Max und Moritz”, actually the first LS/Low German I ever heard in life. (BTW: I
wrote High German based, but with “mutt nich” I want to express E “must not” and
not German “muss nicht” , so what is accurate? How do you handle “can, may, must,
shall, will bzw. können, müssen, dürfen, mögen, sollen, wollen, werden etc.?
These modal verbs are a big problem for beginners, because there is no consistent
rule in LS.)

So it was then, but today the country is urbanised by the modern media etc. in a
way that they can’t elude. And that’s the point where I see this “Hanseatic”
notion. What was it, if the townies used their “Meinungsführerschaft”, influence
and possibilities to give LS more chances to “breath”? If they worked the other
way round: instead of Germanicing the country, a linguistic revival of the LS
Hanseatic era? Not only by means of the media, but by steps who help LS to be
more open to the public, to leave his status as a “Geheimsprache” and a language
for “Eingeweihte”.

I give an example: I was three or four times on this famous Hamburger fish market
on Sunday mornings. And I always wondered why there are nearly no Low German
features at all. I suppose that at least some of the merchants are LS speaking
locals from the country. Now what would it be if the one or the other of these
“Marktschreier” would do his business totally in LS/Low German? Das wär der
Hammer, nicht? Every week on Sunday morning people would dunk in this revived LS
world. Everything on this market written and spoken in LS. The bands who play in
the Fischhalle only sing in LS. There could also be poets and comedians
presenting LS literature and poetry. All fostered (also financially) by the
Council of the Free Hanseatic town of Hamburg. And I suppose there are already
"Förderungen" for LS artists, poets and musicians. Such a weekly possibility to
perform would be an additional furtherance. Or what about that: a puffer who does
his job in LS/Low German gets a LS-Zuschlag/Toeschlag. Das und noch ein bisschen
mehr kann sich die reiche Stadt Hamburg doch wohl noch leisten. What do you think
of this kind of Hanseatism?

Cheers!
Karl-Heinz

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [[log in to unmask]]
Subject: Language use

Moin, Karl-Heinz!

> And for the spelling: I've seen "doon" or "daon" and "ok" more often then 
> "daan" or "ook". Your spelling in this case is Dutch based and I'd prefer 
> that too, but most German Platt-writers don't.

Don't open that can of worms again!  My spelling is not Dutch-based, though it is
definitely related to the spelling of the varieties in the west.  The phoneme is
/aa/ (not /oo/), but the pronunciation varies from [a:] via [Q:] (as in "posh"
Southern English "party") to [o:], depending on the dialect.  The [o:]
pronunciation dominates in the area of the Lower Elbe and _um rum_.  However, the
pronunciation is not the same as that of the real phoneme /oo/, which in those
dialect is always [o.U] or [e.U] (as in Southern English in "go").  The spelling
"o" or "oo" for the long "a" is thus plain wrong but is widely used.  Why? 
Because people that deal with this usually don't know the first thing about
phonology and want to write "phonetically."  The same goes for "Ã¥" (used in
Schleswig-Holstein) and "ao" (used in Westphalia).  The spelling "ao" or "oa" is
used in the Eastern Netherlands as well (also for Flemish in Belgium), but at
least there you can say that some of the dialects do distinguish between [Q:] and
[a:] ~ [æ:], thus have *two* phonemes there, which I would write /aa/ vs /ää/.

If you look through printed Low Saxon publications of Germany you'll find that
the "o" spelling for /aa/ is frequent but not dominant.

> Hab ich da was falsch verstanden?

I'm not sure.  I guess we need to ask Marcus, because I believe he's the one that
wrote it.

> There is another thing I’d like to add: I think that LS lacks a certain 
> degree of urbanity. I was several times in Hamburg and I can tell you, 
> it was only twice I heard LS spoken in real life. You know, I did not 
> search for it, but this is striking. In the country the situation must 
> be better, unless I’d say and I try another: “De Spraok is beina doot!”

That ain't too bad.  _Biena(h)_ (not *_beinah_) for 'almost' is used, especially
in urban varieties.  _Meist_ (_mayst_) is another possibility.  "Doot" is common
spelling and a good example to show what the motto "Write as closely to High
German as possible!" does.  The plural (etc.) is _dode_ (not *_dote_), so it
should be written as _dood_, which many people do, myself included.

While the state of affairs is definitely not good as far as the language in large
cities is concerned, outsiders and locals that do not frequent certain social
spheres are likely to come away with a worse picture than is warranted. 
Especially the time of Germany's "Economic Miracle" (soon after World War II
until the 1970s) has been described by many as the "dark age" for the language in
Hamburg and similar settings.  The language had been suppressed to start with,
but then all eyes were on economic success.  "Good German" was considered vital
in pursuing good careers.  "Platt" was considered detrimental to everyone,
because it was "too country," unless the speakers had proven excellent command of
German as well as excellent learning and careers and practiced "Platt" as a hobby
and within "appropriate" social circles.  So, for instance a certain school
principle and a Lutheran pastor in our area would use the language, oftentimes
even in speeches and sermons.  They got away with it because there was no doubt
about their intelligence, they needed to impress no one, and they were known as
language activists or at least enthusiasts.  And then there were the odd people
that used the language in public with virtually _Hüün un Perdüün_ ([hy:n (?)Un
p3`"dy:n] 'all and sundry', 'everybody and their uncle'), people that either
couldn't help it or didn't give a sh...t.  Or were they language activists?  At
any rate, they were considered and tolerated as neighborhood "characters"
(_Originale_).  Besides that, the language went practically underground.  It
might even be better to say that it became a closet language.  Whilst many people
were in more intimate circles known to use "Platt" among certain relatives and
friends, in the local pub, in their hobby circles, with certain vendors at the
outdoor market, etc., others were careful not to be known as speakers, thus were
"closet speakers."  They didn't want to detrimentally affect the reputations of
their families, especially their children's future.  I was amazed to during my
last couple of visits, when it had become known that I published in the language
and had won a literature prize, when all of a sudden people "came out" to me that
I had never even as much as suspected to know the language, leave alone *speak*
it, even though I had known them all my life -- even next-door neighbors.  Sure
enough, most were late middle-age or elderly, but there were a few younger ones
among them that had learned it because it had been used at home, albeit as a
well-guarded secret.  At any rate, use of the language by young people was
generally discouraged and was considered detrimental to youngsters' survival
chances, economic success, etc.  Nevertheless, many of them (including myself)
made an effort to learn and use it whenever possible, or they were among the
lucky ones that had used it throughout childhood at home.  For this reason, there
are still "Platt" writers in and from Hamburg, Bremen, etc.

> (BTW: I wrote High German based, but with “mutt nich” I want to 
> express E “must not” and not German “muss nicht” , so what is 
> accurate? How do you handle “can, may, must, shall, will bzw. 
> können, müssen, dürfen, mögen, sollen, wollen, werden etc.? 
> These modal verbs are a big problem for beginners, because there 
> is no consistent rule in LS.)

_(Du) muttst nich ..._ ("you mustn't ...") is good "Platt," one of those direct
equivalents of English.  It's used in Missingsch as well: _(Du) muss(t) nich ..._
(e.g., Muss nich tun_ ~ _Muss nich machen_ = Standard German _Du darfst es nicht_
'You mustn't do it' or _Lass es!_ 'Stop it!').

Can: Dat kannst (du) nich doon (You can't do it)
May: Dat dörfst/dröffst (du) nich doon (You may not do it)
Must: Dat mu(tt)st (du) nich doon (You don't have to do it ~ must'n do it)
Shall: Dat scha(ll)st (du) nicht doon (You won't do it ~ mustn't do it)
Should: Dat schu(ll)st (du) nich doon (You shouldn't do it)
Will:  Dat scha(ll)st (du) nicht doon (You won't do it)
     Germanized: Dat war(d)st (du) nicht doon (You won't do it)

Dat willst (du) nich doon (You don't want to do it)

May: Dat magst (du) wull seggen (You may well say that ~ You're right)

I should add that the language does survive in certain "higher" society, at least
did so until not too long ago.  There are locally grown well-to-do circles that
are usually referred to as _Hanseaten_ or _Hanseatischer Adel_ ("Hanseatic
nobility").  These tend to be proud Hamburgers with old tradition and often old
money whose families are well respected within their circles.  They live in the
more expensive neighborhoods, usually along the Elbe shore (e.g., Blankenese,
Nienstedten, Othmarschen, Osdorf, Lurup, Flottbek, Ottensen, Iserbrook, Sülldorf,
Rissen).  Many of them have traditions as ship owners, sea captains, councilmen,
major business owners, and so forth.  These "clubs" tend to be exclusive.  They
speak German in a very "Hanseatic" way, and some use(d) "Platt" as a clubbish
language (probably in order to keep out the Jonnies-Come-Lately" and other
"foreign riffraff").  I wonder if this is one of the reasons that official use of
Low Saxon within Hamburg's city council and state parliament was ratified
practically without a hitch a few years ago.

Karl-Heinz, I find your proposal very interesting.  It goes along with my theory
that incentive programs are needed.

Thanks again.

Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: This may be my last posting before a week in California (mostly away from
computers). Did I hear sighs of relief there?  At any rate, the rest of the crew
will steer the vessel in my absence.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in and from the United States!

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