LL-L 'Etymology' 2006.10.05 (01) [D/E]

Thu Oct 5 15:01:56 UTC 2006

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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L O W L A N D S - L * 05 October 2006 * Volume 01
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From: Heather Rendall [HeatherRendall at compuserve.com]
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2006.10.04 (06) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
> So, Heather, I don't think your theory of greater christian
> liberality on "The
> Island" can be kept...<

I'm not sure I intended to give the idea that I thought the early christian
church was in anyway liberal!
Far from it: dominant and domineering would sum it up more accurately.

How far down the North/South divide can one mark the use of
Sonnabend/Samstag?

Would Sonnabend have been 'created' because of the low church piety of the
Lower Saxons i.e. the day before Sunday i.e. start preparing for God's day?

How long can it be traced back, does anyone know?

Fascinating stuff!

Heather

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From: 'Mathias RÃ¶sel' [Mathias.Roesel at T-Online.de]
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2006.10.04 (06) [E]

> From: Henno Brandsma [hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl]
> Subject: LL-L 'Mythology' 2006.10.04 (02) [E]
> Frisian is "sneon", not "zaterdag", which is Dutch. Some dialects
> have "saterdei" (Eastern) but most have "sneon"
> which derives from "*sinna-ewend" (~ Sonnabend) = the day before Sunday.

May I remark that Sonnabend is not the-day-before-Sunday. It's the end
of the week, that's why it is called Sonnabend (sun set).
-- 
Best,

Mathias 

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From: 'Roland Desnerck' [desnerck.roland at skynet.be]
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology' 2006.10.04 (06) [E]

Beste Ron en beste toalmoats,
Ter informatie: de namen van de dagen in het Oostends
moandage, diesedage, noesdage (of: oesdage), dunderdage, vriedage,
zoaterdage, zundage.
En dit: ik heb steeds gedacht dat "wodan" verwant was met "woede".
Toetnoasteki,
Roland Desnerck uit Oostende

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From: Luc Hellinckx [luc.hellinckx at gmail.com]
Subject: LL-L 'Etymology'

Beste Piet and Jonny,

You wrote:
> Jonny quoted Luc:
>
>>> _Father_ however, has become either "vÃ¥Ã¥r" (now vulgar) or "vadder"
>>> (meaning "bad guy"...???
>>>
> and Jonny wrote:
>
>> _vadder_ or _vÃ¥Ã¥r_ really in the meaning of "bad guy"?
>> Very, very interesting, isnâ€™t it? From â€˜fatherâ€™ to â€˜bad guyâ€™...!
>> Could be a Vlemish/Dutch influence into our language- caused by the
>>
> *little drop of blood* ;-))!
>
> Beste Luc and Jonny,
> Now kom ik dan toch wat in de perblemen mit et vertaelen van de Biebel in
> oons Stellingwarfs, speciaol mit et Oonze Vader (F: Us Heit (G: Unser
> Vader). As dat de iene peer ieuw warkelik een 'goeie vader' (good father)
> veur zien schaopen west wezen zol en een peer ieuwen laeter opiens een
> 'malle beu' (D: boeman; E: bogeyman; G:), kuj' mi'j dan ok zeggen wat soort
> vader et was van rond iene ieuw v.Chr. tot iene ieuw n.Chr.?
>
Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. The father-concept is not
(yet) stigmatized in my part of the world...mind you *s*. But the old
(traditional) word for "father", namely "vÃ¥Ã¥r", is no longer popular,
and is considered to be "low-class" (just like another Brabantish word
for father: "pajt"). One could compare the situation a little with the
use of the word "wijf", "waÃ«f" (B), for "wife" (E). It used to be almost
synonymous with "vrouw", but this is no longer the case; nowadays it's
"not done", "mean" to call a female person "wijf" around here.

Re "vadder" (meanie), I'm not sure about the etymology. It may well be
derived of the Middle Dutch word "vadder", meaning godfather, but it may
just as well have been influenced by the word "vadde", "= lazy woman".
Nowadays however, such a woman is usually called "een (lÃ¥Ã¥) vak" in
Brabantish.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Luc Hellinckx [luc.hellinckx at gmail.com]
Subject: LL-L 'Mythology'

Beste Mathias,

You wrote:
>> Some Low Saxon (Low Germany) have _Goonsdag_, _Gauensdag_ and _Woonsdag_ for
>> 'Wednesday'.
>
> Never heard that, I have to confess. Where is that being said?
>
According to Schiller and LÃ¼bben's "Mittelniederdeutsches WÃ¶rterbuch",
something along the lines of "Gu(de)nsdach" must have been said/written
in Dortmund, MÃ¼nster, Bremen and LÃ¼beck in medieval times.

On the same topic:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa\?A2=ind0507C&L=lowlands-l&P=R604&D=1&H=0&O=T&T=1

Also note that Bavarian has changed "Donnerstag" into "Pfinztag",
"Pfingstag".

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Heather Rendall [HeatherRendall at compuserve.com]
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.10.04 (07) [E]

Message text written by INTERNET:lowlands-l at LOWLANDS-L.NET
>but also "Tamare" (old name for the river
"Demer" in Limburg).<

Could this be cognate with Thames & Thame & Teme all rivers here in
England?

Heather

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Beste toalmoat Roland,

> En dit: ik heb steeds gedacht dat "wodan" verwant was met "woede".

Ja, er schijnt een etymologische betrekking tussen de twee te zijn. 

And our Luc:

> Re "vadder" (meanie), I'm not sure about the etymology. 

Sometimes semantic shifts and cases of word tabooization are due to slang usage,
and past cases may be very difficult to research and prove because slang usually
flew beneath the radar in the past.  Don't forget that "coarse" slang began to
enter mainstream literature no earlier than in the mid-20th century, and before
that it tended to be banned even from academic and reference works.

For example, take the American English slang word "mother" in a derogatory sense,
having nothing to do with a woman but being something like German _ScheiÃŸkerl_ or
_ScheiÃŸding_.  Because this shift (or semantic extension) came about fairly
recently and is thus well documented as well as being alive in people's lifetime
memory, we know that "mother" in this sense comes from "mother f...cker" -- not
exactly a nice thing to say.  Its abbreviated form is socially far more
acceptable than the whole thing.  (Remember our Ben talking about vicious alley
tomcats as "those mothers"?)  It's similar in this to "sucker" -- in the same
sense, not in the sense of "gullible person" -- being fairly acceptable these
days, unlike the apparently original "c...k sucker" -- and the derivative word
"to suck" in the sense of "to be bad" is now similarly accepted by the mainstream
(though I know a couple of persons that still object to them being used in their
presence).

In theory at least, the predominant use of "mother" in this more recent sense
could cause the word "mother" denoting 'maternal person' to be avoided and
finally replaced.

> One could compare the situation a little with the
> use of the word "wijf", "waÃ«f" (B), for "wife" (E). It used to be almost
> synonymous with "vrouw", but this is no longer the case; nowadays it's
> "not done", "mean" to call a female person "wijf" around here.

German _Weib_ and Low Saxon _wyv_ (_Wief_) suffered the same fate.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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