LL-L 'History' 2006.10.05 (09) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 05 October 2006 * Volume 09
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From: Ole Stig Andersen [osa at olestig.dk]
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.10.05 (06) [E]

> From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
> Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.10.04 (07) [E]
>
[snip]

> Of course the idea that Pictish was a form of Brythonic comes from the
> large number of Brythonic-sounding names in Scotland, eg Aberdeen,
> Aberlady, Abernethy, Tranent, Trabrown. It seems to me that the idea
> that Pictish is some sort of lost isolate is dying a difficult death
> because of people who find it difficult to let go of this romantic
> notion. I think the onus is on them to explain where these place names
> come from if Brythonic wasn't widespread in Scotland, or why they think
> Pictish has to be some _other_ language when we've got one that fits the
> bill.
>
> Sandy Fleming
> http://scotstext.org/

This interesting discussion reminds me of the eminent Scottish political
artist Robbie the Pict who has made many hilarious stunts and shrewd
demaskings. I had the pleasure of interviewing him for half a day seven
years ago, and among the many outrageous things he entertained me with was
that Pictish was a Finno-Ugric language. I laughed, suggesting he was
pulling my leg, but he was adamant. I have not seen any of his documentation
for this claim, but it seems that somebody high up in Estonia has. As an
award or recognition Robbie had bestowed upon him some sort Estonian
recognition that he claims gives him diplomatic status allowing him to play
his political theatre to the utmost. Being an Estonian diplomat he for years
succesfully rejected paying the hated tolls over the hated Skye bridge
connecting Skye to the Scottish mainland, and kept the issue at live.

In wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbie_the_Pict
he is portrayed as a Scottish nationalist, but this is grossly misleading,
he is nothing that narrow, but a gifted political artist. His happenings are
also entertaining and thought-provoking for one who does not support him or
his miniscule Pictish Free State on Skye.

Aadmiring the wellformedness and zenlike structure of several of his
expolits I had some respect for him, but Pictish a Finnish language, no. To
make it worse, he also entertained some idea about Phoenician influence in
Scotland/Pictland, which I found slightly Atlantis-like.

But now I hear some Danish archeologists (real ones, not phantasy- or
would-be archaeologists) talk about Egyptian influence in Scandinavia in the
Bronze Age, based on some intriguing similarities beteen petroglyphs in
Western Sweden and Egypt and some other stuff. This I would also have found
slightly Atlantis-like.

Well, whatever ...

An explanation for the Brythonic placenames in Pictland could be a gradual
replacement of a former Pictish language of unknown affiliation by
Brythonic, couldn't it? Such a substitution should leave traces of the
former language(s). Are there not placenames in Pictland that are NOT of
Celtic form?

It has been seen before that peoples shift language but keep their ethnic
name (and vice versa).

And after all there once was a stone age population in the area, before
agriculture and Indoeuropean languages arrived.

Or is that irrelevant?

Ole Stig Andersen
http://www.olestig.dk/english

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From: Ole Stig Andersen [osa at olestig.dk]
Subject: LL-L 'History' 2006.10.05 (06) [E]

I realize now that I mixed two stories in my posting on Pictish,
specifically Robbie the Pict. He did indeed receive some kind of applause
and award from official Estonia for his theory of Pictish being
Finnno-Ugric, but nothing diplomatic. That part of my mix came from the
diplomatic Immunity he himself claimed as a diplomat of his own Pictish Free
State. It wasn't recognised by the authorities, of course, but it did allow
him not to pay the bridge tolls for years. I myself had the pleasure of
accompanying him on one of his many visits at the police's.
Sorry about my failing memory and willing phantasy.

Ole Stig Andersen
http://www.olestig.dk/english

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: History

As to the identity of the Picts, aside from Celtic place names there is their
specific Irish name _Cruithne_ or _Cruithin_ (Old Irish _cru(i)then-túath_),
presumably from Proto-Celtic *_kwriteno-toutā_, thus the "*Kwriteno people."  

Irish, like Scottish Gaelic and Manx (all of which can be traced back to
Ireland), is a Goidelig Celtic language and thus belongs to the *kw- group. 
Welsh, Cornish and Breton, being Brythonic (thus British) Celtic languages,
belong to the *p- group.  Proto-Goidelig *_kwriteno_ would thus have the
Proto-Brythonic equivalent *_priteno_ (> *_Prydyn_, cf. Modern Welsh _Prydeiniwr_).

Let me mention as an aside that "Picts" in the sense of "painted (with woad)"
(Greek _Πικτοί_, Latin _Picti_) appears to be an ancient folk etymology on the
part of Southern explorers and invaders. Apparently, it's now believed that the
name comes from Celtic _pehta_ or _peihta_ 'fighter', 'warrior' (cf. Modern Scots
_Pecht_ 'Pict'), which is related to English "fight," Low Saxon _vechten_
(_fechten_) 'to fight', German _fechten_ 'to fence', etc.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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