LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.12.01 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 December 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (05) [D/E]

Yes, "jildne" is definitely the same as Dutch "gulden", as is already
explained by a few members here. But to understand this, one must know
that the short Dutch u in gulden is not [U] as in German, but [Y] or [2],
so the German spelling would be "gülden". Unrounding from ü to i is a
small step. In this poem we see also "feetkes" with unrounded long ö [2:]

The poem's translation in Dutch:

Ik sta op een lelieblad
de voetjes waren mij immer nat
het bord heeft een gulden rand
Mevrouw de waardin heeft een milde hand

Ingmar

From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?"

Beste Rick,

You wrote:
> Ek Stoh op eenem Lilljeblatt,
> de Feetkes ware mi immer natt.
> De Teller häft e jildne Rand,
> Fru Wirtin häft e milde Hand.
>
> Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
> the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"
>
> Anyone who recognizes it?

Maybe jildne < guldene = gouden?

Initial g>j can be heard in Ripuarian, Berlin, ?Mennonite?.
u>i is due to unrounding, and can be found in many Germanic dialects.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be >
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]

Beste,
Ik denk dat 'jildne" gulden, gouden is; er zijn trouwens vele borden met
een
gouden rand! Die jotisering komt zo vaak voor, vb. geluw = yellow.
Roland Desnerck
Oostende, West-Vlaanderen

From: rick denkers < info at d-denkers.speedlinq.nl>
Subject: little rhyme

Moin,

In the dairy from my father, who passed away in 2003, I found this
little rhyme:

Ek Stoh op eenem Lilljeblatt,
de Feetkes ware mi immer natt.
De Teller häft e jildne Rand,
Fru Wirtin häft e milde Hand.

Its a rhyme which he learned from my grandparents. I can understand
the vast majoriy of it except the word " jildne"

Anyone who recognizes it?

Rick Denkers

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From: Dick Visscher <hgsvisscher at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "What does it mean?" 2007.11.30 (02) [E/LS]

Hi Rick,

I reckon it means "gilded" (gold plated). In Dutch we would say "vergulde".
Many Berliners use a j pronunciation for words starting with the letter g
e.g. Gut (=good) is pronounced as Jut. The way you spell this words reminds
me of that phenomenon. However, I am Dutch, not German so I may be utterly
wrong. The little poem is not hard to understand.
Cheers

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: What does it mean?

I agree with all of you.

By the way, this appears to be a Pomeranian Low Saxon variety closely akin
to Mennonite (Plautdietsch) Low Saxon, if it isn't Plautdietsch spelled
differently.

You hit the nail on the head, Ingmar. The underlying for of *jildne* is
/güld-n-e/ (/g/ -> j, /ü/ -> i). Literary/archaic German has *gülden *'golden'
also, in addition to *golden*. Correspondingly, Yiddish has both גאָלדן *
goldn* and גילדן *gildn*. You might be tempted to say that Low Saxon has
this variation also. But I'm not sure if *one* dialect has it. As most of
you know, as a language, Low Saxon has dialectical variation of high versus
mid-level short vowels in numerous words (e.g., *gold ~ guld* 'gold', *dinken
*~ *denken* 'to think', *Ingelsch ~ Engelsch* 'English', the latter having
the spelling "English" but the pronunciation "Inglish" in English -- a sign
that such variation existed already in Old Saxon?)

Unrounding of front rounded vowels (/ü/ -> i, /ö/ -> e) is a feature of a
large percentage of Eastern Low Saxon and Eastern German dialects. The same
goes for palatalization of velars (/g/ -> gj -> j, /k/ -> kj -> tj), which
is even more widespread in the east. In most varieties (such as the
Mennonite and other Pomeranian ones) it applies only before front vowels,
while in others (such as those in and around Berlin) it applies in all
environments (hence Low Saxon remnants such as *gut* > *jut* 'good' and *
ganz* > *janz* 'whole' in Berlin German). I assume that these shifts, which
also applied in Yiddish, are mostly due to Slavonic influences or rather
substrates (since a large percentage of speakers' ancestors used to be
Slavonic speakers).  On top of it, the Pomeranian Low Saxon varieties
(including Plautdietsch) have lowering of unrounded mid-level vowels (which
in the variety in question is imperfect).

The word *Wirtin* 'hostess' is a German loan. In Low Saxon I would expect **
Kregersch(e)* (= *Krögersch(e)*).

Here my "reconstruction" and English translation following the original:

Original:

Ek Stoh op eenem Lilljeblatt,
de Feetkes ware mi immer natt.
De Teller häft e jildne Rand,
Fru Wirtin häft e milde Hand.

"Reconstruction" in ANS Spelling:

Ek staa op eynem liljenblad.
Dey voytkens weren my immer (~ ümmer) nat.
Dey teller (~ töller) heft en güldnen rand.
Fru Wirtin heft en milde hand.

"Reconstruction" in German-based Spelling:

Ek stah op enem Lilljenblatt.
De Föötkens weren mi immer (~ ümmer) natt.
De Teller (~ Töller) hefft en güldnen Rand.
Fru Wirtin hefft en milde Hand.

(Rough) Translation:

I'm standing on a lily petal.
My little feet were always wet.
The plate has a golden edge.
Mine hostess has a gentle hand.

Whatever this is supposed to mean ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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