LL-L "History" 2007.07.10 (04) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 July 2007 - Volume 04

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From: Larry Granberg <lgranberg at usa.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.07.10 (01) [E]

ooooops, my bad
But any thoughts on the other protions of my post?
Take care,
Larry

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Hi, Larry, and thanks!

That museum you mentioned appears to be the same one I announced at the
Travel site:

lowlands-l.net/travels/ballin-stadt.php

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

I didn't see it as a "bad," Larry.  In fact, I'm grateful for the tip,
because it allows me to update my blurb.

As for the Chamavi, I don't have much of an opinion, in large part because
so little is known about the subject that it's everyone's guess.

As far as we know, mostly from Greek sources, the Chamavi (< Καμάυοι) were
located next to the Cherusci and the Bructeri. This points to the right side
of the Lower Rhine in what is now North Rhine-Westphalia. This was
Saxon-Frankish borderland, and it's hard to tell which tribe was Saxon and
which tribe was Frankish.  Of the Bructeri we know that they came to be
absorbed into the greater Frankish nation, but this doesn't tell us if they
were Saxon or Frankish to start with. Of the Chamavi we know from medieval
sources: *Hamavi qui et Franci* ... ("Chamavi who are also (known as) Franks
...").  Was that inherently so or post-Francicization?

The person you told us about may have been led to assume that Hamburg was
once a Chamavi place because of the Ham- part in the name. See e.g.,
Wikipedia:

The best etymology derives Ham- from common Germanic *haimaz, "home", from
Indo-European *tkei-, "settle", from which the High German place-name
suffix, -heim. The ham- form, "settlement", seems to have come from North
Sea Germanic, as we acquired it through Dutch and French. The -avi, an
adjectival ending, later resulted in -au in other place names, but was
dropped in this one. Chamavi in this derivation would mean "men of the
settlements" or "settlers." When and in what sense they were so is lost in
prehistory.

The apparent occurrence of *haim- in both "Chamavi" and (Hammaburg >) "Hamburg"
ought not necessarily lead us to the conclusion that there is a direct link,
that Hamburg began as a Chamavi settlement.  *Haim- just denoted something
like 'home', 'own place', 'settlement'.

However, there is a school of thought that does subscribe to it, as also
summarized by Wikipedia:

These passages in Tacitus raise the question, if Hamaland is the former
territory of the Bructeri, where were the Chamavi before then? One answer is
that they occupied the coastal plain to the north (Germans moved almost
invariably from north to south). Many settlements are named Hamm, including
possibly a modern city, Hamburg. The name may have come from the Germanic
equivalent of Chamavi.

That's all I can say about that.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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