LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (01) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  19 July 2007 - Volume 01

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From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at nb.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.18 (02) [E/German]

> > Ron used the word 'maskee' as in 'Maskee you likie' the other day ....

But I suppose the default hypothesis must be that "maskee" is from
Portuguese (or Spanish) "mas que"?

At least the hypothesis seems superficially plausible ... and
venerable ... e.g.:

http://www.meirapenna.org/publicacoes/conf/2005/tres_visitas_a_xanghai.htm

http://www.fask.uni-mainz.de/inst/iaa/anglophonie/second/black.htm

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:510.hobson

http://books.google.com/books?id=bpsAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA144&dq=maskee+%22mas+que%22

http://books.google.com/books?id=3qk-p5hKuccC&pg=PA495&ots=PtWZrb0MJA&dq=maskee+%22mas+que%22&sig=XRhnFRiUNvgXo342BGF_vY1_d30

-- Doug Wilson

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From: Kevin Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.18 (02) [E/German]

English does have the word "byword" – not used much in modern English, but
it is found in the King James Bible. It is defined as:

*1* *:* a proverbial saying *: PROVERB<http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/proverb>
*
*2 a* *:* one that personifies a type *b* *:* one that is noteworthy or
notorious
*3* *: EPITHET <http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/epithet>*
*4* *:* a frequently used word or phrase

As used in the KJV, it seems to mean something like a person or place cited
as an example or warning for others ("Don't forget what happened to…").  So
in the sentence, "They went the way of the dodo bird," the dodo bird is a
byword. Is that anything like "Beispiel"?

Kevin Caldwell
From: Luc Hellinckx  <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

In this light, it would be interesting to track how "for example" and
cognates have spread across Northern Europe, versus "zum Beispiel" (and
similar constructions). This is wat Kluge writes about "Beispiel":

*Beispiel* Sn std. (12. Jh., Form 15. Jh.), mhd. bīspel, andfrk. bīspil
"Gleichnis, Redensart". Ebenso ae. bispell, eigentlich "das dazu
Erzählte", zusammengesetzt aus bei und g. *spella- n. "überlieferte
Geschichte, Mythos" in gt. spill, anord. spjall (meist Pl.), ae. spell,
as. spel, ahd. spel, das sich bei gleicher Lautform (*spel-) nur mit
arm. ara-spel "Sage, Sprichwort" vergleicht; weiter vielleicht mit s
mobile zu den unter befehlen aufgeführten Verwandten von l. appellāre.
Der Vokalismus ist seit spätmittelhochdeutscher Zeit sekundär an Spiel
angeglichen worden (vgl. Kirchspiel).
Die heutige Bedeutung "Beispiel, Muster, Vorbild" beruht auf einer
Lehnbedeutung von l. exemplum, das u.a. "Gleichnis" und "Vorbild,
Muster" bedeutet.

I wonder who actually introduced this "Lehnbedeutung", given the fact
that German and Dutch both now have it in their standard varieties ("zum
Beispiel" and "bij-voorbeeld"), but English and Southern Dutch don't
("bijvoorbeeld" is a "schoolwoord", and traditional dialect still has
"per exempel", even though it becomes outdated now). I have this feeling
that the "example"-set is older and neutral whereas
"Beispiel-bijvoorbeeld" may have had religious overtones. Could it be a
(protestant) church word? Again, this is just a wild guess.
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From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.18 (03) [E]

Hi all,

Ron, I think the Dutch East India Company carried misschien to
the Indonesian archipelago and seamen carried it north to the Chinese and
adjacent coasts where it became maskie. Douglas' suggestion of the mas que
reinforcing the word can also not be ignored.

But you have usurped my initial question, whether other Lowlands languages
also use similar interjections of the Orange River types; allemaskie,
allemintig, or allemapstieks.

Regards,
Elsie Zinsser
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.18 (01) [E]

In Tok Pisin "maski" means "forget about it" as in "maski, emi samting
nating".  "Forget it, it doesn't matter".  I can't think of a connection to
the Dutch, or a likely semantic shift though.

Paul
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.18 (02) [E/German]

From: Luc Hellinckx  <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
....I wonder who actually introduced this "Lehnbedeutung", given the fact
that German and Dutch both now have it in their standard varieties ("zum
Beispiel" and "bij-voorbeeld"), but English and Southern Dutch don't

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx


That got me thinking about what the "native" (i.e. Germanic) English word
for "example" would be, and I can't think of one.  Most of our Latin/French
loanwords have a Germanic counterpart, but I'm stuck for one there.

Paul Finlow-Bates
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