LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  20 July 2007 - Volume 01

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From: Maria Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (04) [E]

Hi all,

Thanks, Mark, but you've not been following the whole story.
I did say that the mentioned interjections were possibly euphemisms. [The
"alle" "part possibly comes from 'almagtig', and is used euphemistically"]

I bet you did not know that the 'alle'-prefix possibly derives
from our original Afrikaans speakers, the Cape Muslim.

My dad, who comes from the Bushmanland, still uses "allematjiesfontein!"
after 60 years in the city, and was very surprised when I mentioned to him
that these forms were originally used as euphemisms.

Other euphemisms that he is aware of are: Kot (God), maaifoelie (mother
f***), moervaring (mother f***), blikslater (bliksem), hardekwas (hardegat),
aapstert (a***hole), etc. etc. etc.

Goeie môre!
Elsie Zinsser

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net >
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (01) [E/German]
Dear Elsie, Ron, All:
Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
Elsie, you mention 'allemaskie', 'allemintig' & 'allemapstieks' as
interjections without bearing much on their actual nature. People, she is
referring to what the English used to indulge in as 'minced oaths' as from
people unwilling to take the Lord's name in vain ('Allemagtig' -
'Almighty').

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (04) [E]

 Beste Mark,

Du schreyvst:

> Did this practice hold sway in other Lowlands Language circles,

Supplementary to Ron's answer: we even say *'hotzverdoori'*, which is in G:
'gottverdammt', E: 'goddamned'. Look at the shifting from _*g_* to *_h_!*

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (02) [E]

> From: "heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk"
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.19 (01) [E/German]

> Brilliant, Kevin. As you say not a word much in use nowadays. So much
> so I cannot get straight in my mind which of the following would be
> used. Help, anyone?
>
> "He was a byword of depravity"
>
>  "He was a byword for depravity"
>
> "He was the byword in depravity"

Although of course the choice of preposition in any phrase tends to vary
in some dialects of any language, I would say the word "byword" is part
of my active vocabulary and the pronoun I'd use with it is "for", or in
some contexts, "in".

However, none of the sentences you suggested make sense. A person can't
be a word of any kind! I think to make sense you'd have to say:

"His name was a byword in depravity."

This means that in depraved circles his name was a byword (ie, anybody
moving in depraved company would recognise it).

Or you could say (and it's an even bigger insult):

"His name is a byword for depravity."

This is like saying people actually mention his name to suggest the idea
that something or someone else is depraved, by comparing them to him in
some way.

Kevin's sentence, "The dodo is a byword." makes sense, but leaves
something open to interpretation by the hearers, ie it's a byword for
what? Most people would be able to mentally complete the sentence:

"The dodo is a byword for obsolescence."

meaning that you can refer to something as a dodo and your hearers
should recognise that you mean it's obsolete.

My interpretation of the word is the same as that of words like
"by-name", "by-laws", and "by-roads". It means that the thing may not be
the usual way to refer to something, it may not be an actual part of the
legal system, or it may not be the usual road to take, but it's a usage
accepted by a some sort of consensus.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.14 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Sandy et al.,
>
> This is a follow-up on our discussion about place names with "ham,"
> and it is a crossover from the "History" thread.
>
> Turns out that this "ham" is etymologically related to English (hemm
> >) "hem" with the meaning 'border' (> 'border of a garment'). It is
> further related to the following:
>       * German hemm- (hemmen) 'to stop', 'to hinder', 'to curb', 'to
>         check', 'to restrain', southern dialects 'to enclose
>         lifestock'
>       * Old English hemman 'to hinder', 'to curb', 'to check', 'to
>         restrain', 'to stop (up)', 'to shut'
>       * Old Norse hemja 'to restrain', 'to curb', 'to check', 'to
>         force'; hemill 'hobbling device'
>       * Old Frisian ham, hamm, hem, him 'enclosed pasture',
>         'fighting/battle arena'
>       * North Frisian heam 'hem', 'edge', 'border'
>       * Old Saxon ham 'meadow', 'nook', 'corner', 'bay' (< *'enclosed
>         pasture')
>       * Low Saxon Hamm 'enclosed land', Rhenish 'meadow' (> Northern
>         German)
>       * Western Flemish: ham 'meadow'
>       * Indo-European *kem- 'to enclose with wickerwork (> fence)'
>       * Greek κημόσ kēmós 'woven urn lid', 'fish trap', 'muzzle'

As you enquired earlier, yes, this is Somerset, and is part of Wessex,
the region of the West Saxons. It's famed for Alfred the Great who I
believe had his capital at Shaftesbury. My particular village and a few
other local villages use the unusual form "uch" (which I've heard them
pronounce "ootch", /utS/) for "I", I don't know whether that would be
related to the Dutch "ik" and suchlike? This is of course only used when
speaking the local West Country dialect.

The Old Saxon definition you gave is particularly interesting. Ham Hill
is a long, gradually increasing ridge and looking down on the lower
parts from the quarry at the top you can indeed see a sharp bend in the
ridge creating a large sheltered nook. on the slopes of this nook you
can see a series of step formations which were man-made farming strips
built in the Middle Ages.

There was once a large Iron Age fort at the top.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From:  R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Thanks, Sandy.

>       * Old Saxon ham 'meadow', 'nook', 'corner', 'bay' (< *'enclosed
>         pasture')

I wonder if I should have said "cove" rather than "bay."

My particular village and a few
other local villages use the unusual form "uch" (which I've heard them
pronounce "ootch", /utS/) for "I", I don't know whether that would be
related to the Dutch "ik" and suchlike?

I'm pretty sure it is, but more specifically to Low Saxon ik (in some
dialects, as in Dutch and Berlin German, emphatic ikke).

Old Saxon: ik
Old English: ic (academically written *iċ*) is pronounced [ItS] (as in
"itch").

Saxon dialects have more or less strong propensities toward rounding short
vowels, which makes a development  from *iċ *to *uċ* not all that surprising
to me.

Yesterday I wrote:

Not "copped oaths," "rolled oaths" or "oathmeal"?

That was supposed to be "chopped oaths" of course. I hate it when I barely
manage to be funny and then screw it up with a typo!  Ah, well, it's been a
long, hard and stressful week ...

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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