LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.21 (01) [E/V]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  21 July 2007 - Volume 01

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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymoly" 2007.07.20 (08) [E]

Beste Luc,

Du schreyvst:

> On a sidenote, this "spell" has nothing to do with Dutch "spel" or
> German "Spiel", game. "Spiel" (in Bei-spiel) was a case of
> "hineininterpretierung". It is however the same word as "spell", like in
> "under a spell", and even "to spell words".
Very interesting! I didn't know the English noun 'spell' before, but I was
aware about the fact that there must have been another, a different
root than just D: 'spel', G: 'Spiel', LS: 'Speel', E: 'game', as you might
see in our former, but insatisfactorily ending discussion here: Item #13981
(8 Oct 2006 12:07) - LL-L 'Etymology' 2006.10.08 (02) [D/E]
<http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0610B&L=lowlands-l&P=R67>
We still find it in e.g. LS: *'Kar(k)spill'*, in German misleadingly
'Kirchspiel', E: 'parish', which we perhaps could interprete as 'a place
under the benediction and trust of the (local) church'.

BTW: my 'friend' Sass recommends to write  'Bi_spil[l]_' (G: 'Beispiel') in
LS, and this time I think his suggestion could be better than my
'Bii_speel_', as it might already have been watered by Standard German in my
regiolect. In OHG we have two different roots: *'spellon'* - 'to tell' and *
'spilon'* - 'to play' (though they probably are related).

But wait- *Harper* here
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=spell&searchmode=none even refers
to an alternative meaning:

*quote:*
 *spell (v.2)* <http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spell>
"work in place of (another)," O.E. *spelian* "to take the place of," related
to *gespelia* "substitute," of uncertain origin. Perhaps related to *spilian
* "to play" (see *spiel* <http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spiel>).
*unquote*

Of course- "Ich *spiele* die Rolle des Hamlet", "Ich *spiele* den starken
Mann" are common idioms in German, meaning 'to act as a substitute'.
But:* 'gespelia'* presumably is the same as G: 'Gespiel_e_/_in_', which
could be interpreted both as 'substitute' (for the legal wife) and 'wife
(just) to *play* with'. (Where is the great difference...;-)?)

Last but not least:
*quote (Harper once more)*:
 The noun meaning "indefinite period of time" first recorded 1706.
*unquote*

Wicked stuff to confuse even professional linguists as proven in (at this
time unhelpful) 'Herkunfts-Woerterbuch' (Duden)!

'Is dat nu al'ns* Speelkroom* edders *Spellkroom* :-(?'

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Jonny, whatever the reason may be (which could be confusion in ancient
times), Spill [spI.l] and Spęęl (Spääl) [spe:l] in the sense of 'play' are
dialectically distributed in Low Saxon; i.e., some dialects use one and
other dialects use the other.  So it isn't a matter of right or wrong unless
you focus on one dialect only.

   - Old Saxon: spel 'speech', 'account', 'tale', spellunga 'tale',
   'story' (bilithi 'parable'); spil 'play', 'movement', 'music',
spilōn'to play', 'to move'
   - Old Low Franconian: spel 'account', 'tale', 'parable', 'speech';
   spil 'play'
   - Old Frisian: spel ~ spil 'play' -- bīspil 'example'
   - Old English: spel ~ spell 'speech', 'account', 'tale', spellian 'to
   tell', spellboda 'messenger', 'prophet'; spillian 'to play' --
bīspell'example', 'parable'
   - Germanic: *spela(m) 'tale'; *spila(m) 'play', 'dance'
   - Indo-European: *pel- > *spel- 'to speak' (cf. Sanskrit भल- bhal- 'to
   describe', 'to expound')

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (01) [E]

 Beste Elsie Zinsser

Subject: LL-L "Etymology"

Thanks, & I have been lurking with pleasure all along. I did catch the point
about euphemism, but that is a rather broad category, & I wanted to tighten
it a bit

[The "alle" "part possibly comes from 'almagtig', and is used
euphemistically"]

I bet you did not know that the 'alle'-prefix possibly derives
from our original Afrikaans speakers, the Cape Muslim.

Actually I have heard that too. I wouldn't want to differ. It seems plain
that the coincidence of language that brought the adjective 'alle-' so close
to the name of God in Arabic was more than their worshipful tongues could
allow, & for that to be part of a Divine attribute even more.

On the other hand, in all the Lowlands Languages, I believe, this
construction was found long before colonial contact with Muslims, consider
the English 'Almighty'. To our fathers too, it was surely provocative of
charges of 'using The Lord's Name in vain...'

Well, other blokes are biting too. A delicious string.

My dad, who comes from the Bushmanland, still uses "allematjiesfontein!"

Thanks for that!

Tot Siens,
Mark

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (03) [E]

> From: "heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk"
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (01) [E]
>
> In which case is it really the case that a person cannot be the
> subject of being a byword
>
> Casanova himself was a byword for lechery
> Casanova's name was a byword for lechery

Well, the first seems improperly analysed to me, but there's plenty of
that sort of thing in language. Frequent general usage is more important
in language than analytical correcteness, I would say.

Judging by Luc's dictionary examples it looks like the word is used much
more loosely than I realised.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Kevin and Cheryl Caldwell <kevin.caldwell1963 at verizon.net>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (03) [E]

I believe that a person (or nation) can be referred to as a byword. The
places where "byword" is used in the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible
are:

Deut. 28:36-37 – "The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt
set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known;
and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. And thou shalt become
an astonishment, a proverb, and a *byword*, among all nations whither the
LORD shall lead thee." [This is one of the curses God promised would befall
the Israelites if they didn't keep the law of Moses]

I Kings 9:6-7 – "But if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your
children, and will not keep my commandments and my statutes which I have set
before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut
off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I
have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be
a proverb and a *byword* among all people."

2 Chronicles 7:19-20 – "But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my
commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other
gods, and worship them; Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my
land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my
name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a *
byword* among all nations." [Parallel text to the previous one, except this
time it is the temple that will become a byword]

Job 17:6 – "He hath made me also a *byword* of the people…" [Job is
speaking]

Job 30:9 – "And now am I their song, yea, I am their *byword*." [Here Job is
saying that people he used to hold in disdain now mock him and avoid him.]

Psalm 44:13-14 – "Thou makest us a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and a
derision to them that are round about us.  Thou makest us a *byword* among
the heathen, a shaking of the head among the people." [The writer is
lamenting what has happened to the nation of Israel]

Kevin Caldwell

From: " heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk"
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (01) [E]

Sandy Fleming wrote

However, none of the sentences you suggested make sense. A person can't
be a word of any kind! I think to make sense you'd have to say:

"His name was a byword in depravity."

This means that in depraved circles his name was a byword (ie, anybody
moving in depraved company would recognise it).

Or you could say (and it's an even bigger insult):

"His name is a byword for depravity."

This is like saying people actually mention his name to suggest the idea
that something or someone else is depraved, by comparing them to him in
some way.

Of course! I knew the sentences didn't ring true to my ear but I couldn't
work out what was wrong
I think its possible origin as being cognate with "Beispiel / Beispell"
meaning 'an example' makes perfect sense:

His name was (an example)  of depravity
The dodo is( an example) of man-made extinction

In which case is it really the case that a person cannot be the subject of
being a byword

Casanova himself was a byword for lechery
Casanova's name was a byword for lechery

????

Heather
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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2007.07.20 (06) [LS]

Beste,
En in West-Vlaanderen zegt men: mesjhies, olteméts, oltemee;
hé je olteméts e sulfertsje voe mien? heb je mischien een lucifertje voor
mij?
Toetnoasteki!
Roland Desnerck uut Osténde, Stad an Zai
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