LL-L "Etymology" 2007.06.01 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  01 June 2007 - Volume 01

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2007.05.31 (05) [E]

> From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2007.05.31 (04) [E]

> I wondered, because in Viennese/Austrian there is the word "Beidel"
> and it supposedly means (nearly) the same. In upper-Saxon there could
> be a similar word, maybe with a halve diphtong "éi". I suppose that
> Piedel has something to do with "pee" whereas "beidel" could be a
> cognate of Standard-German "Beutel", so there's probably no link, as
> in Austrian-Bavarian "pissen" is "bischen" and not "beischen".

Well, you put it that way, it makes me think of the Scots/English
"piddle", which is a fairly acceptable way of saying "piss" - it's
neither rude, nor baby talk, nor a euphemism.

Am I right in saying it's English too? English people seem to say
"widdle", but on the other hand in Dorset in the very south of England
there's the River Piddle - any relationship? - that runs through or by
such places as Tolpuddle (of trade union martyr fame), Piddletrenthide
(immortalised in poetry by Ogden Nash) and Puddletown.

In Scots there's also the word "pentle" for penis. Are words such as
penis, pentle, pendulum, pencil and pen by any chance related? I think
we should be told!

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Sandy!

> I think we should be told!

Indeed.  Inquiring minds do need to be told.

Scots pentle is the cognate of (older) English "pintle".  I take it as being
a spelling variant, considering that English [I] tends to correspond to [e]
and [E] in Scots (e.g., sin [sen] ~ [sEn]).

There's no concensus re it's origin, but indications are that there is at
least a distant relationship with "pin".  "Pintle" must be a diminutive form
judging my it's /-l/ ending.  This would lean us with *pint *[pInt].  This
is exactly what you find in various Saxon varieties old and new, also in Old
Frisian, Middle German, and Danish. Older Icelandic has pintill, regional
Norwegian pintol, and Old Danish pintel (which survives in some modern
dialects).

However, it could very well be that there is a distant relationship with
Romance *pend- 'to hang', 'to dangle'.

But ... now ... hold on to your ... whatever!

Sanskrit has पिण्डिक piṇḍika (piNDika) for 'penis'! -ika is most likely the
diminutive suffix. So the hypothetical root is *pind! Are you duly
impressed? (By the way, internationally better-known लिङ्ग liṅga (liGga)
ought to be translated 'phallus', I feel.)  But I can't find any Sanskrit
connection between this and words for 'hang', 'dangle', etc.  So we're
talking pretty darn ancient here.

"Piddle", "widdle", and probably also "puddle". must originally be
onomatopoetic, much like "tinkle", "piss", "pish", etc.  "Puddle" has Saxon
and German cognates, mostly verbal ones, such as puddeln, referring to
"splashing".

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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