LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (02) [E/S]

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March 2007 - Volume 02

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From: Jonny Meibohm <altkehdinger at freenet.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.22 (04) [E]

Beste Sandy, Ron,

Sandy wrote:

Dialects and manners of speaking may come and go (and occasionally come
back again!) but it seems that the language, in one form or another,
continues.

I think so, too, that a language called 'Low Saxon' will exist in future.
People as we and many others are busy to collect as much knowledge as we and
they are able to preserve and paint a picture as complete as possible for
later generations.

But- who *will* really speak this language? The boring question: who speaks
Latin today? A circle of freaky scientists and crazy hobby-linguists?

Who *is* still, in our days, speaking LS? Ron writes (in a previous mail):

I am tired of the argument that the language should stay in the village.
There have always been many townsfolk and city dwellers that use it, though
it is true that since urban supression of the language started in earnest it
has been mostly in rural corners that it has been used routinely.

And so it is, and I can't imagine that this language will re-conquer the
bureaus of lawyers, medicine doctors or the big trading houses in Hamburg or
Bremen. It's hard enough for Standard German to defend its place there
against the growing influence of foreign languages (not only English, but
Turkish, Russian, Kazachian... ;-)). Our very famous M. Reich-Ranitzky these
days stated: "Die deutsche Sprache ist sexy und wird nicht untergehen!" (The
German language is sexy and won't perish!)
If you are lucky enough to meet anyone speaking LS outside your own
community you nearly always will hear: "Yes, my grannies came from a small
village, and they spoke some 'Platt' together. So I've learned it a little
myself." If these grannies are older than 60 and really know how LS should
be spoken, so that youngster can call himself happy to have had teachers for
the sound and syntax.

But then these young people have to do the next step: learning! And who
really will do, who will force them at last to use books(!!) which in a good
quality don't even exist? Two years at secondary school, with perhaps two
lessons a week, without being examined? Without a real chance to find an
even-minded partner to speak with, to exercise and control *for the very
rest of their life*? As a fifth or sixth language? With parents in a world
of mobility, one from Munich, the other from Denmark or even Turkey? Doing
their further education in any Hungarian University, completed by one year
in the U.S or New Zealand? I fear nearly everyone living this way would be
overtaxed to *speak* this language- no matter if it's Nedersaksisch,
Neddersassisch or Scots.

Why could the Mennonites keep Plautdietsch alive throughout the centuries? I
think: because of their *closed community*, (still???) just far enough from
the influences of their surrounding world.

Why did the Frisians in The Nederlands succeed to re-animate their language?
Because of the fact that they feel as something special (you may call it
minority if you want), as an own community. So this time: language as help
for self-identification.

So- *if* there is a chance to survive then it will be in rural communities,
but things are changing here as well; urban way of life isn't any longer a
matter of the cities only.

I'm sure- LS-languages already have made the step to survive, but I don't
think as spoken and really used or even needed ones. The soul already is
leaving the body.

So- all of us here and everywhere dealing with Ingvaeonic oldies should be
very, very careful when we record and 'log' our knowledge. That's my
intention I am scolded for as a poor purist and notorious nay-sayer- though
it was my teacher Reinhard 'Ron' F. Hahn who often enough pushed me to go
this way ;-)!
I cannot become an assistant of people who write a dictionary and decide
what kind of words they keep and preserve and which words that for their
convincement are needed but don't already exist have to be invented by
themselves! Beg your pardon, Ron: I do not basically object
*good*inventions to update, to complete a language in a special case,
but
who being of sound mind would try to make a mathematical dictionary in e.g.
Gothic, hoping that pupils one bad day are tought their school lessons this
way?

Looking back to what I wrote above (and in previous postings) I feel it
could look very negative and hopeless. But- nevertheless I still try to keep
the language alive for our children. *'Jetzt erst recht!'*  Now more than
ever!

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language maintenance

Thanks, Jonny.  I appreciate what seems like the gradual opening of your
mind.

And now ...

There are lots of people, including young people (if they don't dominate the
scene), that are genuinely interested in Low Saxon and want to learn it, not
only in Germany but all over the world.  Some of them are of Low Saxon
background, others are not.  I keep getting messages asking me if there are
any courses, textbooks and such.  I have to tell them basically "No."  Yes,
there is some stuff floating around here and there but nothing that amounts
to an actual course, certainly none offered to people that don't know
German.

Now image someone comes up with such a course.  The positive side of it
would be that, if well done, it might have the potential of creating more
interest through access, and this, through international attention, could
strengthen prestige and confidence.  (The power of international attention
should never be underestimated.)  Now image the typical reaction among the
typical naysayers in Northern Germany.  "What kind of weird dialect is
that?" -- "It's a horrible mishmash!" -- "We don't talk like that in
ourvillage." ...  After all, there
is no standard language, so the best you can do is what radio stations such
as Radio Bremen do: come up with a mixture or a variety of dialects.
Alternatively, you could pick a single dialect from which it is easy to
understand other dialects.  Colin Wilson did something similar when he wrote
the first-ever Scots textbook (with CD).

If the language is to survive and especially if it is to gain users we have
to get over this nitpicking negativity.  If the language is to survive --
and bear in mind that change is inevitable -- we have to counteract the
current negativity and fragmentation.  People have to embrace the notion of
many varieties of one language.  This is done in all other languages, and it
is this that keeps it going.  A closed society can only preserve a single
dialect or a small dialect group, so that isn't an option in this case,
certainly not an option if you look at the entire language.

Alternatively, you could work toward allowing a small number of dialect
groups to develop their own linguae francae (Northern LS, Eastern Frisian
LS, Westphalian LS, Estphalian LS, Drenthe LS, etc.).  An example of this is
Kurdish which started with several groups, and over time these have dwindled
to three, thus three "standard" languages (Kurmanji, Sorani and Kelhuri,
also referred to as Northern, Central and Southern respectively).  Armenian
developed two: Eastern and Western.  Sorbian also developed two: Lower and
Upper.  Catalan-Valencian-Balearic now sees itself as one language with
three standards. It can be done.  The main objective is not only survival
but also advancement, and this objective can only be reached if everyone is
on the same page, so to speak.  Yes, there will always be disagreements as
to what to choose and how to implement what.  Sometimes the problems and
positions may seem intractable, but they are only really so if there's
unbending, destructive negativity, backbiting, lack of cooperation, and
sabotage.  The best shot you have to overcome those is to constantly remind
people that fundamentally they are all on the same side of the battle.  It's
too easy to forget this when you deal with details.

Noug' preysterd!

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (01) [E/S]

From: "Isaac M. Davis" < isaacmacdonalddavis at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.22 (04) [E]

Sandy,

A hae thocht this masel, aboot Scots. As A hae said afore, A'm a student o
the Irish leid, an A read aboot the tribbles wi that leid, an think tae
masel that Scots is lucky, ye micht weel say, that the leid competin wi it
is sae close kin. As it is, there's a braid spectrum o leid varieties, some
that ye coud cry English, some that are clear Scots, an a muckle o ithers,
neither fish nor fowl. Gin the braidest o the braid (weel, laist English o
the lot) dee oot, there's still mair kinds o speech that isna quite English.
Gin ye arena speakin Irish, ye're speakin English. No spectrum, no varieties
in between.

I've thought this myself, about Scots. As I've said before, I'm a student of
the Irish language, and I read about the troubles with that language, and
think to myself that Scots is lucky, you might say, that the language
competing with it is so closely related. As it is, there's a broad spectrum
of language varieties, some that you could call English, some that are clear
Scots, and a lot of othothers, neither fish nor fowl. If the broadest of the
broad (well, the least English of the lot) die out, there's still more kinds
of speech that aren't quite English. If you aren't speaking Irish, you're
speaking English. No spectrum, no varieties in between.

Isaac M. Davis

Hi Isaac
The difference is that Scots is a direct descendant of one of the closely
related Anglo-Saxon or Old English dialects, as is English.  English
speakers didn't introduce English to Scotland to be then modified by local
speakers, Scots has the same "Lowlands Pedigree" as English - arguably
moreso as it tends to have less foreign borrowings.  These two "Sister
Languages" have interacted to create the spectrum you speak of; in fact the
spectrum has probably always been there, as much as within England.  The
modern England/Scotland border is relatively young compared with the history
of Low German in Britain.
The situation in Ireland is rather different.  Although Germanic languages
were spoken in the island in the First Millenium CE, with Norse and possibly
Saxon settlers, there is no continuity from there to the present day as
there is in England and Scotland; all Irish English is derived from a more
recent import, deriving from some form of Modern English in the broadest
linguistic sense, mostly post 1500.

Paul Finlow-Bates

•

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