LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.24 (04) [E/S]

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

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L O W L A N D S - L - 23 March 2007 - Volume 04

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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (01) [E/S]

> From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <Ben.Bloomgren at asu.edu>
> Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.22 (04) [E]
>
> Thar's aye sadness wheneyr a mither tongue dees. Yea the land o the
> leel's aye fair, but ye ken, aa canna view the wab pages o a tongue
> that's nar the end o its time, for as Jonny did proclaim, one less
> method o talkin remains.
>
> Ok, probably the worst Scots you've ever seen, but please try to help
> if possible!

No, I've seen Ron's early attempts  :)

The "Land o the Leal" is Heaven, I suspect from the context you think
otherwise! Or do dead languages go there?

Which language is near the end of its time?

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Jonny Meibohm <altkehdinger at freenet.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (04) [E]

Beste Sandy, Ron,

Sandy schreyv:

Jonny, could you consider using fewer emotive adjectives? It makes it
difficult to take your arguments seriously.

Well- are my arguments really not serious or is it just my emotional
German-Slavonic exaggeration standing against British understatement ;-)? My
mother liked to say *"Von Zeit zu Zeit muss man seine slavische Seele
baumeln lassen",* E: "From time to time one has to dangle one's Slavonic
soul" ;-)!

When you say "the soul is already leaving the body" what do you mean? It
sounds like you think it's too late and nothing could save LS - oh wait
- when you say LS you sometimes mean the LS spoken by older people and
you sometimes mean the LS as it's spoken (or not?) now, so nobody can
ever really know what you're talking about. What are "LS-languages"?
Does the poetic body/soul analogy really apply to languages or is it
just another emotive appeal?

 You're quite right; it's hard to follow me in some points! I tend to
simplify facts because I'm often too lazy to write so long textes in
English. Sometimes I tend to take the first adjectives which come into my
mind, so as 'freaky' or 'crazy', where I should make some more
investigations in a *good* dictionary. If you didn't understand me it partly
could be caused by my insufficient English.

*I mean:*

1. LS-languages will survive, because there is a lot of people busy to
document all knowledge, sources etc. which still can be found. And- they can
make it more public than it was in the past.

2. The language which survives this way is a different language, compared
with the language of the oldies *and* with the language still spoken within
(rural) communities today. It will have passed a kind of filter or
rectifier- *different from an evolutionary development*! Having written in
past about this fact again and again I have in mind projects like these:
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B6ftsiet
The four or even more considerable different varieties of LS-language*s* you
find in Germany (and in The Netherlands perhaps about the same) aren't
represented here for the reason of (necessary?) equalization in a modern
medium. People working at that project try to use a variety close to the
[Northern-]Hamburg/Lower-Elbe-dialect.  This way other LS-communities get
dropped and ruled.
In a previous mail (LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (02) [E/S]) Ron
wrote to this problem:

If the language is to survive and especially if it is to gain users we have
to get over this nitpicking negativity.  If the language is to survive --
and bear in mind that change is inevitable -- we have to counteract the
current negativity and fragmentation.  People have to embrace the notion of
many varieties of one language.  This is done in all other languages, and it
is this that keeps it going.  A closed society can only preserve a single
dialect or a small dialect group, so that isn't an option in this case,
certainly not an option if you look at the entire language.
Alternatively, you could work toward allowing a small number of dialect
groups to develop their own linguae francae (Northern LS, Eastern Frisian
LS, Westphalian LS, Estphalian LS, Drenthe LS, etc.).

Ron- I'm not sure to understand you correctly.

More than one composition now? I'm also convinced that it could make sense
to create 'subspecies' from a mixture of closely related dialects, for
example as EF LS and Drenthe LS or East- and Westphalian LS combined with
perhaps the Haidjer dialect.

Shouldn't people this way less be forced to 'forget' their regional dialects
they've learned in their communities? Less be forced to learn another kind
of language? Let me tell: if the domination, the base of a futural LS (so as
perhaps in the above mentioned project) would be e.g. Eastphalian I for
myself even shouldn't have any interest for it, because I'd find it too hard
to understand. It would be worthless for *my* own use and pleasure, and this
way the speakers of other dialects must feel reading *my* *'*Platt'.

Just two(??) days ago you wrote positively about the project, i.e.
contributions
in a LS-mixture, of Radio Bremen. I agree: many, also *native* LS-speakers,
like it very much. But we shouldn't forget that the transmission-range of
that station is limited for the more western parts of Northern Germany, i.e.
for that region people haven't already much diffculties to understand each
others dialect.

3. The question of soul or not soul within a language of course depends on
the position and expectance of the viewer. Nobody can deny that a lot of
postings here on the list and various contributions in literature elsewhere
deal with feelings (emotions!!, Sandy- watch out ;-)) towards any home
language- that kind of dialect which gave people the safety to be a member
of any community. I even dare to say: people living abroad, e.g. in the U.S.
or in Australia (thanks, Peter, at this point that you enjoy to take part in
my emotions ;-)) sometimes show more emotional connection to their 'old'
languages as people born, grown up and still living in their home country.
Isn't it a kind of soul they're looking for?

I remember how eager I was to learn another variety of LS (Eastern Frisian
in this case) when I for professional reasons had to live in that region. I
wanted to become included, to be part of their social life and to be within
their rank order- just the same as in my early youth concerning *my* *home*
-LS.
The same wouldn't happen I fear if there just would be any supra-regional,
semi-artificial, just *additional* language. I can't imagine anyone to use
it in daily life.

And here I come back to the beginning:
*The language which survives this way is a different language, compared with
the language of the oldies and with the language still spoken within (rural)
communities today.*
**
** Sandy, you further wrote:

I don't think your argument is valid at all. You say that the Mennonites
kept Plautdietsch alive because of isolation, you say Frisians
re-animated their language because they feel something special as
community. And your conclusion is that [minority language] survival will
be in rural communities? It doesn't follow.
 Perhaps all the arguments above can help you to follow: I don't think and
point out anywhere that the *old* languages which people still speak today
have any guarantee to survive in any special European rural communities. Far
from it! I pointed out that it will be that *compulsory modernized* language
which survives- for the use mainly by some craz...-sorry ;-)- intellectuals,
linguists and *fans*. *(And perhaps some nostalgical Americans and Aussies
will do, and specially for their benefit we should keep an alert eye on any
project dealing with LS in the WWW. Perhaps they'll still find something
reminding them at a 'soulful' language here.)*

But: in rural communities we find *more* people than in urban areas who
still use their LS-dialect in daily life. If we give support to them we
perhaps could extend the time till their dialects definitely vanish, G:*'ihre
Seele aushauchen' (to exhale their souls, meaning: to die)*.

But not for the prize of any civil war ;-)!


All the best and very kind greetings

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language maintenance

Jonny,

I never suggested that any speaker should be forced or feel obligated to
give up his or her dialect.  What I have suggested all along is more of a
unified way of writing those dialects, because it is mostly the divergent
spelling "methods" that keep people apart.  Once people open their minds and
start reading other people's writings I expect that a loose "standard" will
start to evolve.  But that doesn't mean that people should give up their
local dialects either, just that there will be a loose written standard
language as a second or third step in the development, and people should
feel free to use it or not to use it.  This is a bit similar to Nynorsk
Norwegian.  It doesn't have hard and fast rules, and most people's home
dialects shine through clearly when they speak and write, yet there is a
sense of a general language community.  They are way ahead, but theirs has
been a bumpy road also.

Creating sub-groups with their own standards would in my opinion be possible
but would be a "soft option."  It would most likely do away with
fragmentation only in part, and it would be likely to lead to permanent
separation or only very loose affiliation between the groups.

In some case such separation may be warranted.  One such case may be
Shetlandic having a separate standard from Mainstream Scots, in large part
because there are great linguistic and cultural differences, mostly due to
strong Scandinavian heritage on the islands.

Nevertheless, if there are subgroups with their own standards, I would hope
that they'd have basic spelling guidelines in common so as to facilitate
mutual comprehension in writing and thus not sever old connections.

I hope this made it clearer.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language maintenance" 2007.03.23 (06) [E

Dear Ron, Jonny, Ben. Peter and others that have contributed to this string
of "Language Maintenance". I have been reading your "back and forecies" with
great interest and oddly enough emotionality. I finally came to the
conclusion that: We all inherit a certain amount of "culture". Some of it
makes us feel good and some of it does not. It behooves all of us to
actively cherish those good parts and polish them, share them with our
children, and show them to the world around us. Without us doing that the
world would become a very sterile place. Go plant your gardens! Jacqueline

PS   and Peter, you may add "mok" to your collection.

•

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