LL-L "History" 2007.05.06 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  06 May 2007 - Volume 01

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (06) [E]

From: Mark Dreyer <mrdreyer at lantic.net >
Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (02) [E]

Subject: LL-L "History"
You ask how it happened that Rollo's Norseman were absorbed so quickly into
the French population? It's quite simple; they were a shiptake & more of
men. They took local women to wife, had locals in service, & any business
they did at all but drink with their cupmates was in French. They were,
however, very intelligent, & soon enough learned the local argot, but it was
the women & servants, not excluding the priests, that taught their sons.

Yrs,
Mark

•

There is a reference from the early 11thC of a Norman noble sending his son
to Caen "to learn the speech of his ancestors".  This is presumably Danish,
and implies it was still used in Upper Circles then.  It also implies that
most Normans, even upper class ones, didn't.

There is also a reference to a Norman family having a battle-cry something
like "Tur" into the 13thC.  This could be either Thor or Tyr in origin.

Clearly though, the Norman founders were very few in number, and rapidly
assimilated language, just as the Germanic Franks before them.  Of course,
in England, the Normans went full-circle; they ended up speaking a West
Germanic language with major Scandinavian influences!

Paul Finlow-Bates
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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (02) [E]

Hallo,

<...>
> (BTW: *burgum *of course is of Germanic origin, not
> Latin!

> Jonny Meibohm
>
<...>

We never can be sure about anything. And this makes
life a lot easier.
Generally is accepted that 'bourg' in French
place-names is of Latin origin., i.e. lat. burgus.

There have been people who suggested that this Latin
word had been a loan from Germanic. And of course the
initial 'b' might be subject to a couple of hundred
Phd's.

Let's say that there are more languages that preserved
an I-E word of this stem [so to say Celtic and Greek].

Cherbourg, meaning something like 'city of the Norman
ships', has its name-giving most likely from the
French, so this 'bourg' has a non-Germanic origin.
I take this for sure.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: Pat Reynolds <pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (02) [E]
In message
<57c981290705051140r2a3a516fxc706464d84cd8e9c at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at gmail.com> i.e. Jonny writes
>Why did this happen so fast? Was it perhaps caused by the fact that the
>Normans/Vikings probablyweren't a homogeneous tribe with a common
>language/dialect and common culture?
>Were they too few people, just a very thin ruling upper class that
>wasn't able to keep apart from theindigenous folks?But after 1066 in
>Britain they could influence language and culture over there so heavily!
>
>Or was it just the fact that they found a culture/civilisation which
>was higher developed than their own? Or a result of their fast
>christianization?
>
>Or are there much more relics of the 'original' Normans I'm not aware
>of

I think the situation in England in 1066 was very different to the
situation in northern France in earlier centuries.

But one can look at the impact that similar groups of Scandinavians had
on England (and Scotland, and Ireland) at the time the Normans were
going into France - with very different results (at least as far as
place names go).

There is a lot of work being done now in Britain on dna - such as
http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/doc_WTX022535.html, and (bringing the Norman
invasion right up to date) on the DNA of people with the surname Norman
(see http://www.normanfolk.org/dna/).

And In message
<57c981290705051950x18d4aec4yd7302b98cc46293e at mail.gmail.com>,
Lowlands-L List <lowlands.list at gmail.com> Mark writes
>You ask how it happened that Rollo's Norseman were absorbed so quickly
>into the French population? It's quite simple; they were a shiptake &
>more of men. They took local women to wife, had locals in service, &
>any business they did at all butdrink with their cupmates was in
>French. They were, however, very intelligent, & soon enough learned the
>local argot, but it was the women & servants, not excluding the
>priests, that taught their sons

And that's what the dna says happened in Britain, too. I've been trying
(and failing) to find anything on dna studies in France.

Cheers,

Pat
--
Pat Reynolds

It may look messy now ...
        ... but just you come back in 500 years time (T. Pratchett).

----------

From: Jonny Meibohm <altkehdinger at freenet.de>
Subject: LL-L "History" 2007.05.05 (06) [E]

 Beste Paul and Mark,

thanks for your answers.

You wrote, according to my question about the French Normans loosing their
language within one generation:

*Arthur (in a previous mail)*

> I thought there were at least a few -bec and -torpe placenames in
Normandy.  I'll have to search Google Maps.

> Paul Finlow-Bates

Yes- I had been searching before and found:

*Le Bec*, an Abbey founded by the Norman knight *Herluinus*, with French
name *'Hellouin'. *I wasn't sure about the *-bec* meaning something like a
creek, LS: Beek

*Normanville**,* very obvious, but could be a French name as well

*Neubourg*, sited NW of *Évreux* in the departement of *L'Eure*

I didn't find *-torpe *anywhere.

*Mark*

> You ask how it happened that Rollo's Norseman were absorbed so quickly
into the French population? It's
> quite simple; they were a shiptake & more of men.

Hm- I don't know anything about the number of invaders in France, but I read
about the fact that the Vikings invading Britain soon sent ships back to
their home land for 'civilians', e.g. settlers, women, perhaps children
after the warriors had conquered a certain piece of territory and could
build a beachhold.
But maybe things went completely different on *The Island* than elsewhere on
the Vikings tracks throughout Europe.

Maybe that they just were sick of fighting and roaming, and I guess there
wasn't any wife or child waiting for the maiority of them at any poor,
miserable home. I could think that their way of life was a damned hard job
to do for a man over the age of 35. What different kind of carreer should he
start? Become a farmer or craftsman after a life of fighting?

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

In tracing possible Germanic elements in Normandy's names, I suggest one
ought to consult not only French versions but Norman (Nouorman, including
Channel Island dialect) ones as well in hopes of finding in them further
leads.  You also need to be aware that Latin names were very often made up
and were likely to be subject to folk etymology.  I suppose, though, that in
most cases there aren't any clues.

   - *Carusburc* > *Caris bourc* > *Chiérebourg* > Cherbourg = Tchidbouo([
   tʃidbwu:] <- /čirbur/) (Latin *Coesaris burgus*, *Carusburgus*) <
   Kjarsborg "marsh fortification"
   - Quettehou = Tchettehou (/čethu/) < Ketilholm "hill of (Chief) Ketil"
   - Bricquebec = Briquebé (/brikbe/) < *Brekbekk "slope brook"
   - Brecqhou = Brecqhou (Brechou) (/brekhu/) < *Brekholm "slope
   hill/island/"


Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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