LL-L "Names" 2007.05.23 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  23 May 2007 - Volume 01

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From: MWI <wintzermichel at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2007.05.23 (07) [E]

Heiko, I think (Ron to confirm) that Uelzen and Uetersen have nothing to do
with
Umlaut. The "e" is an archaic indication of vowel length, so the correct
pronounciation (long lost in the collective memory) is Uulzen and Uutersen
(like
English "oo").
In place names less frequently used by outsiders, this collective memory
is still intact. Near Buchholz i.d.N. for example, there are 2 small
villages,
Buensen and Vaensen, and older people still pronouce them (which I think
is correct) as Buunsen, Vaansen. Over to you, Ron.
Cheers, Mike Wintzer


From: Heiko Evermann <heiko.evermann at gmx.de <heiko.evermann at gmx.de+>>
Subject: LL-L German place names with initial Umlaut

For place names with an initial Umlaut there seems to be a strange rule in
German.
It is "Uelzen" (not "Ülzen")
or "Uetersen" (not "Ütersen")

This is also done for Ö. I do not know any Examples with Ä/Ae.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Hi, Heiko and Mike!

Well, I'm not so sure, Mike.

First of all let's establishe that the names mentioned aren't German but Low
Saxon, though they are of Germany.  (Sorry.  I had to mention this.)

Remember that written umlauts came in only during the Middle Saxon and
Middle German phases of development, and then it tended to be written
inconsistently.  Furthermore, it was written not with two dots but with a
small "e" on top of a vowel letter (and the two dots developed from that).

It could simply be that the small "e" on top of a capital letter looked
extra weird, and people avoided it, write the "e" behind the letter instead.

Aside from that, note that the (West Slavonic) Polabian name for Uelzen is
Wilcaus (pronounced "WILL-tsows") which developed from *Wilcus" (pronounced
*WILL-tsoos" (Draveno-Polabian has the shifts /uu/ > /au/ and /ii/ > /ai/
like German).  So this Ue... thing could be a medieval way of trying to
write [wI] or [we] (as opposed to [vI] or [ve]).*

* While other West Salvonic languages pronounce w as [v], Sorbian (both
languages) pronounces it as [w] (like English "w") which means that Sorbian
does not phonetically distinguish written w and written ł but pronounces
both as [w] (while in Kashubian and Polish they are [v] and [w]
respectively).

This does nothing for Uetersen, however, since this is believed to be a
Saxon name (and the town is a bit west of the Slavonic boundary).  It is
believed to come from *Uterst-Stên "Outermost Stone" or something like that.

As for Oevelgönne (rather than *Övelgönne), that's another Saxon name.  I
think we've discussed it before, but I can't find it in the archives.  It
corresponds to some place names in the Netherlands, and it's meaning seems
to be something like "foul-smelling, muddy slough".  This oevel part is
pronounced ['?œ:vl] (with a long vowel similar to "ur" in "hurt" as
pronounced in Southern England), and it's a cognate of German übel and
English "evil".  If it were spelled *övel it should be pronounced ['?œIvl]
(with a diphthong as in French oeil, as in English "boy" in the Lower Elbe
dialects), which is wrong. (Not that this would be of any relevance to
Wikiplatt, mind you, authoritative though it's supposed to be.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

German place names with initial umlaut:

Öblarn (Austria)
Öhningen
Öhringen
Ölbronn-Dürrn
Öhling (Austria)
Öllingen
Ölsen
Ölsig
Öpfingen
Östringen
Ötigheim
Ötisheim
Ötzingen

Übach-Palenberg
Überackern (Austria)
Übereisenbach
Überherrn
Überlingen
Übersaxen (Austria)
Übersbach (Austria)
Übersee
Üchtelhausen
Ückeritz
Ülsby
Ürzig
Üttfeld
Üxheim
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