LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  09 November 2007 - Volume 01
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (06)

Beste Mike,

Du schreyvst:

> HURRAY!!!

Perhaps you didn't realize what this action means.

According to the list of place names Heiko had sent there are about 50
villages to re-name (why not more?). That makes 100 plates which have to be
demounted, to be labeled and enameled newly and then to be re-mounted again.
According to our local 'Straßenmeisterei' (road maintenance staff) it makes
about 3,000 EURO per each- in summary 300,000 EURO. And that for just the
doubtful change of one letter?! Couldn't this money be spend for better
destinations?

What the heck is the difference between e.g. 'Lütjensee' and 'Lüttensee'?
Ridiculous, isn't it? "Eine echte deutsche Amtsposse (a 'bureaucratic coup
de farce')- Schilda (pun intended) lässt grüßen!"

After generations of foreign geometers, half-analphabetical 'Amtsschreibern'
(communal clerks) now we meet the generation of non-native people to
arrogate themselves, as a sovereign act of the provincial government
('fastleggen'), to fog continuously grown structures.

And how should it be run in Northern Frisia? As far as I know some villages
there have, besides their official German name, a Danish, a North Frisian
and a Low Saxon one. New Babylon!

And- as Ron mentioned if I understand him correctly- there should be really
existing, still used Low Saxon names. If not, why to invent them? For what
reason if the people, the inhabitants themselves don't use or even never
have heard them? Just to bedevil the tourists ;-)?

I cannot imagine at all that this kind of an administrative act should
be useful for the sake of LS.

Allerbest!

Jonny Meibohm

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From: Karl-Heinz Lorenz <Karl-Heinz.Lorenz at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]

Liebe Freunde zweisprachiger Ortstafeln!
Dear friends of bilingual topographic names!

Habt ihr bei den Bemühungen um zweisprachige Ortstafeln nicht manchmal Angst
davor, unfreiwillig zur Minderheit im eigenen Land zu werden? Die meisten
Ortsnamen und sonstigen topographischen Namen in Norddeutschland sind doch
gemischt hoch- und niederdeutsch, man sollte sich da nichts vormachen. Und
so schlecht ist das doch nicht, ganz im Gegenteil. Für mich sind sie ohnehin
eher nieder- als hochdeutsch. Beispielsweise verwendet man in den
offiziellen Ortsnamen dieses Kreises zwar offensichtlich einheitlich -dorf
statt -dörp, andererseits -bek statt -bach, "-wohld" statt "-wald", "-hoop"
statt "-haufen", "-have" statt "hafen", "Lütje-" statt "Klein-" u.ä.

Wenn ich mir die Liste

http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html

genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest denkbar, dass als Gegenreaktion
rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden, wie zb. Bad Altenlohe, Barssiedel,
Bruch, Brunsbach (Braunbach), Grünwald, Heidekampf, Heilshaufen, Jersbach,
Lasbach, Kleinsee, Münchhagen, Neuwald, Oststeinbach, Reinbach, Siech,
Zangstadt, Tremssiedel, Witzhafen.

The topograghic names in this part((Kreis [=district] Stormarn) and also in
other parts  of Northern Germany are actually partly High German, partly Low
German/Saxon. For example they use HG "-dorf" instead of "-dörp" on the
other hand LG/LS "-bek" instead of "bach".

The consequent divide of High- and Low-German/Saxon names could result in a
involuntarily linguistic and ethnic separation and lead the declared
Low-German/Saxon into a minority status in their own land!

Examples:

official name: Ammersbek (allegedly HG, in fact LG/LS!)
proposed LS: Ammersbeek (only a orthographic adjustment)
"real" HG and so a possible backlash: Ammersbach

official: Bad Oldesloe (again: this is rather LG/LS than High German!)
LS proposal: Bad Oschloe
HG backlash: Bad Altenlohe

In a HG reaction of purism also "-büttel" consequently would be replaced by
something like "-siedel" (you discussed these words before), "-wohld" by
"-wald", "-have" by "-hafen" (Witzhave/Witzhafen), "Braak" would be "Bruch",
"Heilshoop" - "Heilshaufen", "Mönkhagen" - "Münchhagen", "Tangstedt" -
"Zangstadt" etc (see above).

Hence the mixed Low- /High-German names are not that bad, methinks.

Regards
Karl-Heinz
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