LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Yasuji Waki <yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.08 (05) [LS]

 From: Yasuji Waki yasuji at amber.plala.or.jp
Subject: Plattdeutche Ortnamen

Hallo Heiko san,
I opened the site which you had itroduced and wonder whether these
plattdeutsche Ortnamen have been used since old time in this area or newly
trasnlated into Plattdeutsch. Would you please answer to my question?

Hartlich Greuten,
Yasuji, ut Japan

From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: Der Kreis Stormarn hat jetzt die plattdeutschen Namen offziell
festgelegt

Leve Lowlanners,

kiekt mal op
http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html

De Krink Stormarn hett tosamen mit de Fehrs-Gill de plattdüütschen Naams för
de Öörd in Stormarn fastleggt, dormit de op de Oortsschiller kamen köönt.

Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko Evermann

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From: Heiko Evermann <privat at evermann.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.09 (01) [E]

Leve Lüüd,
> Perhaps you didn't realize what this action means.
>
> According to the list of place names Heiko had sent there are about 50
> villages to re-name (why not more?). That makes 100 plates which have to
be
> demounted, to be labeled and enameled newly and then to be re-mounted
> again. According to our local 'Straßenmeisterei' (road maintenance staff)
> it makes about 3,000 EURO per each- in summary 300,000 EURO. And that for
> just the doubtful change of one letter?! Couldn't this money be spend for
> better destinations?
1) It is not the village that is to be "renamed". It is a question of
bilingual roadsigns.
2) Such bilingual roadsigns are a direct consequence of the European Charter
for the protection of minority and regional languages. So we do not have to
discuss whether or not to do those sign. They *will* be made. The only
questions are
2.1) what are the Low Saxon names
2.2) when will the road signs be replaced. A sign does not cost 3.000 EUR
each. As long as you do only replace the road sign itself (not the sign
post), signs are available from 40 EUR each plus VAT (that would make about
50 EUR per sign), when you order sufficiently high amounts. (I do have such
an offer from an official sign making company at home). Some administration
has put incredibly high prices in circulation just to undermine the change
process. A whole smaller town could change 20 signs for about 1000 EUR,
which
should be within the budget limits. And I would say that money would be well
spent. One could also try to find sponsors. In the case of Glinde, there is
an offer (as far as I remember) by the local Plattdeutschverein to pay half
of the money. Another important thing to remember is that roadsigns have a
"life expectancy" of about 10 years. So every now and then a road sign will
have to be replaced anyway. If one just decides to use the bilingual signs
from now on, then the whole replacing would be done within 10 years with NO
SINGLE EXTRA EURO SPENT!!!!

> What the heck is the difference between e.g. 'Lütjensee' and 'Lüttensee'?
> Ridiculous, isn't it? "Eine echte deutsche Amtsposse (a 'bureaucratic coup
> de farce')- Schilda (pun intended) lässt grüßen!"
You are completely missing the point. The point is to make Low Saxon visible
to everyone who passes through the city.

> After generations of foreign geometers, half-analphabetical
> 'Amtsschreibern' (communal clerks) now we meet the generation of
non-native
> people to arrogate themselves, as a sovereign act of the provincial
> government ('fastleggen'), to fog continuously grown structures.
Please stick to the truth. Non-native? Those people involved in making the
list where native speakers and they asked the local native speakers of the
towns for their opinions.

> And how should it be run in Northern Frisia? As far as I know some
villages
> there have, besides their official German name, a Danish, a North Frisian
> and a Low Saxon one. New Babylon!
In some cases there might be a need for more than 2 names on the road sign.
I
am just wondering why you are not complaining about the North Frisian names
on the road signs. There the process has been the same. It took quite a
while
of lobbying work until the government understood its obligations that it
entered when it recognized North Frisian as protected language under the EU
language charter. And then the names were listed and then the road signs
were
changed. Do you also complain here, when Breklum (German) and Brääklem
(North
Frisian) do not differ much? In your opinion: Was the money wasted there?
Just in case you think so: it does not make a difference. Pacta sunt
servanda. If you sign a EU language charter you are bound to protect the
languages that you named.

> And- as Ron mentioned if I understand him correctly- there should be
really
> existing, still used Low Saxon names. If not, why to invent them? For what
> reason if the people, the inhabitants themselves don't use or even never
> have heard them? Just to bedevil the tourists ;-)?
The current names are not "unreal", they were made by native speakers in
close
collaboration. If there is any name where you have a better proposal, please
name it here and we can discuss about it.

> Wenn ich mir die Liste
>
> http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/AlphabetischeListe.html
>
> genau ansehe, dann ist es doch zumindest denkbar, dass als Gegenreaktion
> rein hochdeutsche Namen angedacht werden, wie zb. Bad Altenlohe,
> Barssiedel, Bruch, Brunsbach (Braunbach), Grünwald, Heidekampf,
> Heilshaufen, Jersbach, Lasbach, Kleinsee, Münchhagen, Neuwald,
> Oststeinbach, Reinbach, Siech, Zangstadt, Tremssiedel, Witzhafen.
Among all the Dummtüüch that I have read and heard in the news this year,
nothing even comes close to this comment of yours.

Heiko

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Moin, Heiko!

Thanks for clarifying various points above, some of which were news to me.

Just for the record, in case this got lost in the shuffle, my question about
the authenticity of Low Saxon place name choices was not meant to imply
opposition to the project. I was merely mystified, in part by Jonny's
response (e.g. "ancestors spinning in their graves") as well as by gaps in
my knowledge. It would indeed by very useful for all of us if we were kept
current on this so as to avoid ingestion of red herrings.

I think it would be very useful also to look back at the language assertion
events that involved bilingual signs in Wales and led up to increased Welsh
language use in the late 20th century on a road paved with bureaucratic
stalling techniques. Our Sandy shared some of this with us quite some time
ago.

I have a question with regard to Schleswig-Holstein, with relevance to the
Saterland area of Lower Saxony as well.

As most of us know, Schleswig-Holstein is the linguistically most diverse
state of Germany, if we don't consider "foreigners'" languages everywhere.
It is true that some communities use more than two languages. I have
noticed, for instance on language maps, that people want to whittle this
down to a maximum of two languages, such as German and North Frisian in
Northern Friesland, when Low Saxon and in some cases Danish are used there
as well (and Low Saxon is used in Saterland as well). Personally I don't
object to more than two languages on a sign (as long as signs are designed
in a clear fashion), find objections to this little more than a diversion
technique. So, my question is if there are going to be restrictions in this
regard.

It is always easy to dismiss efforts like this sign project as
inconsequential, as frivolous and as tokenism. However, I believe that
symbolism is worth some money and effort in that its visibility is likely to
be both educational and encouraging. The alternative would be business as
usual, which means ignoring, non-recognition, misinformation, ignorance and
in many cases probably the wish to hasten language death to bring about
fulfillment of the (pipe) dream of linguistic "purity" and homogeneity as
main ingredients for the creation of "unity" within national boundaries.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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