LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (08) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  10 November 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Moin, Heiko!
> I think it would be very useful also to look back at the language
> assertion events that involved bilingual signs in Wales and led up to
> increased Welsh language use in the late 20th century on a road paved
> with bureaucratic stalling techniques. Our Sandy shared some of this
> with us quite some time ago.

It was just a matter of civil servants in London ruling that if signs
were to be changed to bilingual English and Welsh, then an application
would have to be made for each sign individually. So Welsh language
activists started doing exactly that. In the end it would seem that it
was easier to just put up all new signs as bilingual than put up a new
sign in English only to have to go back and change it after it was
spotted by a Welsh speaker.

As an aside, on a recent weekend in Jersey (not New Jersey!) I was a bit
surprised at the way signage was handled. Street and road names were
either in French or English, but not both. Occasionally a street would
have a sign in both French and English - but only because the name of
the street was completely different in French from in English, ie the
signage wasn't a translation.

It seems to me that streets were signed as whatever people actually
called them, and this is normally either French or English, but not
both?

I only saw one example of signage in Jersey French, which was the
"Welcome to Jersey" sign etched on the class door at the boat terminal
in St Helier. There was no accompanying English or French.

Unfortunately none of the Local Interest sections of Jersey bookshops
seemed to have anything in or about Jersey French.

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

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From: Heiko Evermann <Heiko.Evermann at gmx.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.11.10 (03) [E]

Hi Yasuji Waki,
> I opened the site which you had itroduced and wonder whether these
> plattdeutsche Ortnamen have been used since old time in this area or newly
> trasnlated into Plattdeutsch. Would you please answer to my question?
Actually, I do not know how old the names are. I just know
1) from my E-mail contacts with Heinrich Thies, that they had quite some
discussions with local people and took their wishes. This led to some
irregularities: -beek vs. -bääk, Pölitz (slavic name kept) vs. Barns (slavic
name Barnitz adapted), Oschloe (where I would have suggested Oschloh)
2) that the names look quite natural to me. So it does not matter whether
the name is 1000 years old, 100 years or a recent adaption. What matters is
that they make sense and that the local people were involved and asked for
their opinion
3) any mistakes could still be changed if a better name is proposed or a
different name is proven to be in actual use.

Hi Ron,
> I think it would be very useful also to look back at the language
> assertion
> events that involved bilingual signs in Wales and led up to increased
> Welsh
> language use in the late 20th century on a road paved with bureaucratic
> stalling techniques. Our Sandy shared some of this with us quite some time
> ago.
That is my hope, too. For that people have to notice the language as often
as possible and road signs are a valuable part of that. Of course other
steps have to follow like: usage of the language in the official web pages.
A good example for this is New Zealand where every official website seems to
use at least a little bit of Maori, like the university of Christchurch, see
http://www.canterbury.ac.nz/ in the upper right corner. Even if it is just
the letterhead of official letters or the signature (der Bürgermeister von
Großhansdorf/de Börgermeester vun Groothansdörp). This would show a respect
for the language that is often missing nowadays and I am very sure that it
would help.

> I have a question with regard to Schleswig-Holstein, with relevance to the
> Saterland area of Lower Saxony as well.
>
> As most of us know, Schleswig-Holstein is the linguistically most diverse
> state of Germany, if we don't consider "foreigners'" languages everywhere.
> It is true that some communities use more than two languages. I have
> noticed, for instance on language maps, that people want to whittle this
> down to a maximum of two languages, such as German and North Frisian in
> Northern Friesland, when Low Saxon and in some cases Danish are used there
> as well (and Low Saxon is used in Saterland as well). Personally I don't
> object to more than two languages on a sign (as long as signs are designed
> in a clear fashion), find objections to this little more than a diversion
> technique. So, my question is if there are going to be restrictions in
> this
> regard.
The official "Erlass" by the ministry in Kiel is reported in
http://www.kreis-stormarn.de/kreis/gemeinden/HinweisePlatt.htm
"Eine Ausgestaltung von Ortstafeln in mehr als zwei Sprachen sollte
möglichst vermieden werden, zumal ein "Katalog" unterschiedlicher
Ortsbezeichnungen auch die Aussagekraft der einzelnen Zusatzbezeichnungen
erheblich schmälern würde. Die Einzelfallentscheidung bleibt insoweit der
jeweiligen Gemeinde überlassen."
To this I would say: Well, dream on and get familiar with the contents and
the spirit of the EU language charter. But at least it says "sollte
möglichst vermieden werden" (should be avoided if possible) and "Die
Einzelfallentscheidung bkleibt insoweit der jeweiligen Gemeinde überlassen".
(The decision is with the local community)
I do not know how many communities would be affected by this rule. I just
know that the Danes (their minority party SSW) were the first to complain.
 Even though they do not do German "subtitles" on their side of the border
at all!!! And even though they did not have any Danish roadsigns in
Sleswig-Holsteen so far. My guess is that not even the government in Kiel
knows how many communities would have a problem. It was quite an effort to
compile the list for Stormarn (not within the Danish or the North Frisian
area), so probably not even the Low Saxons in the affected areas would know.
We will just wait what happens and my personal guess is that we will have a
certain number of communities that will make use of the exception. The
problem will probably be of a limited scope for Low Saxon as I do not expect
Low Saxon place names for North Frisian place names like "Breklum" or
"Hörnum". I would expect to see more trouble between Danes and Frisians, but
we will have to see. Over time the ministry in Kiel will have to accept road
signs with three names.

By the way, Jonny, is there any place where you have a better proposal for a
Low Saxon place name? The current list is going to settle into the minds of
the people a litte bit more every day. It will be copied, it will be found
by google, the names are already in the Wikipeida, it will just stick. So
hurry up. :)
Hartlich Gröten,

Heiko Evermann

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Thanks a lot, Sandy and Heiko!

Heiko, I have a possibly sensative question about the thing with the Danish
community. If you don't have the answer(s), perhaps you could ask Heinrich
Thies.

I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area." Yes, the by far
highest concentration of ethnic Danes of the state live in the north, namely
in Schleswig, the closer to the border the higher the concentration.

(Remember that, technically speaking, Schleswig-Holstein is Southern Jutland
and that many Danes think of it that way, though *Sønderjylland/Synnejylland
* "Southern Jutland" is now an administrative area within today's Denmark,
and pretty much all Danes think of Schleswig on today's German side of the
border as *Sønderslesig/Synneslesvig* "Southern Schleswig," as opposed
to *Nordslesvig
*"Northern Schleswig" on today's Danish side of the border.)

As may be known to many of our Lowlanders, pretty much all of today's German
state of Schleswig-Holstein was Danish territory for quite some time, all
the way down to the northern bank of the Elbe Rivers. In fact, some
communities that have meanwhile been integrated into the city state Hamburg
(e.g. Altona) used to be under the Danish crown as well. For this reason,
there are many place names all over the state whose names have Danish
equivalents as well (even Hamburg = Hamborg, which was just outside Denmark
then).

As I said, this may be politically sensitive, but how is this going to be
handled?

I have a bit of a problem with the concept "Danish area," since this sounds
a bit like a "homeland" in the old South African context. While there are
areal concentrations, I know that Danish Germans live all over the state,
especially in the larger towns and cities and of course in and around the
capital Kiel, since ethnic Danes participate in pretty much everything like
everyone else, and it's their state as well -- the *whole* state. This is
similar to speakers of Low Saxons, while even within its "homeland" Northern
Friesland the Frisian community is now sparse and mostly rural, and there
are few actual communities of North Frisian speakers outside, with the
exception of Kiel maybe.

As a member of the Scandinavian Association I used to rub shoulders with
lots of Danes of Northern Germany, temporary and permanent Danish
expatriates as well as Danish Germans. There was then a pretty darn large
community of them in and around Hamburg, and I expect this hasn't changed
much. Some Danes came from nearby, i.e. from southern places in
Schleswig-Holstein when there were large meetings in Hamburg (e.g. in the
Christmas season), and I understand that they had smaller communities where
they lived. Bear in mind that after World War II many Schleswig Germans or
part-Germans declared themselves Danish, also that frequently Danish was
chosen as the home language in cases of "mixed" marriages, and not all of
those people remained in the north. -- I think that by now you got my point.

I realize that, should this be considered in name displays, this could open
an old can of worms. This would not be a can strictly of German worms for
ethnic Germans and Danish worms for ethnic Danes, but many ethnic Germans,
especially in the north of the state, have traditions of favoring Danish
rule to German rule, at least within the Schleswig area. Could fear of this
be in part to blame for not applying Danish naming throughout the state?

Below is a list of color-coded examples.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

*German  Low Saxon  Frisian  Danish*

Bredstedt  (Breestedt?)  Bräist  Bredsted

Eckernförde  Eckernför/Eckernföör  ?  Egernførde/Ekernførde/Egernfjord

Fehmarn  Fehmarn  ?  Femern

Flensburg  Flensborg  Flansborj  Flensborg

Friedrichstadt  (Freerkstadt?)  Fräärstää  Frederiksstad

Glücksburg  Glücksborg/Lücksborg  ?  Lyksborg

Glückstadt  Glückstadt  ?  Lykstad

Harrislee  Harrislee  ?  Harreslev

Helgoland  Helgoland  deät Lun/Hålilönj  Helgoland

Holstein  Holsteen  Holstiinj  Holsten

Lübeck  Lübeck  ?  Lybæk

Nordfriesland  Noordfreesland  Nordfraschlönj  Nordfrisland

Pellworm  Pellworm  Pälweerm  Pelvorm

Rendsburg  (Rensborg?)  ?  Rendsborg

Schleswig  Sleswig  Slaswik  Slesvig

Sörup  Sörup  ? Sørup

Stapelholm  Stapelholm  ?  Stabelholm

Sylt  Sylt  Söl'  Sild

Tönning  Tönning  Taning  Tønning

Westerland  Westerland  Wäästerlön  Vesterland
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