LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.08 (08) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  08 October 2007 - Volume 08
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Sönke Dibbern <s_dibbern at web.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.08 (02) [E]

Nu langt mi dat mit disse Debatt, nu ka'ik mi ni mehr trüchhollen un mutt
dor ok mien Verscheel bidoon:

> From: jonny <jonny.meibohm at arcor.de>
> Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2007.10.07 (04) [E]
>
>  Dear Sandy,
>
> you wrote:
>
>>>  1st: No money!
>>>  2nd: No teachers!
>>>  3d: No space [...]
>>>  4th: No pupils! [...]
>
>> Ah, you sound a lovely death knell for your language, which any goth
>> would be proud of! Perhaps, Jonny, this is what you will be remembered
>> for.
> Maybe I'd be proud if...
Jonny, dat meenst jo wull ni wahrhaftig. Du seggst, Du wullt dat Schipp
lever mit Jan un allemann op Grund setten as 'n Barg ool Kraams na
butenbords smieten un vun Legerwall freekamen! Dat kann't jo wull ni ween.

>> However, you (and Gabriele) seem to me always to put the priority not on
>> having the language taught but on preserving all the dialects as they
>> are. I agree that this is hopeless, but its only your lack of realism
>> that makes it an issue.
> Lack of realism? Another 'No'. That IS realistic- all the different,
> laudable ideas and attempts how to save a language are dreams, far away
> from
> today's situation.
> I don't know if you're aware of the fact that the dialects of LS are
> extremely different- an average LS-speaker of the Lunenburg-area in
> Germany
> is definitely unable to understand his LS-collegue from
> Groningen/Netherl.
> spontaneously. They probably would understand each other much better if
> they
> tried to do their conversations in German vs Dutch. If you might find
> this
> too extreme let me add that I myself have great difficulties to
> understand
> native LS-speakers of the Westfalian dialects.
> So- what medium-dialect should we call Low Saxon worth to preserve it 'as
> the leading, only one' for the future? Who should make a decision about
> it?
> Should there be any scale of values I've never heard about before?
>> It doesn't matter whether it's Welsh, Cornish, Hebrew, English,
>> Icelandic, Low Saxon or even Esperanto, language constancy is something
>> that just doesn't happen.
> I'm just able to speak for LS, no matter if in Germany or The
> Netherlands.
> I see the incredible fast loss of real Low Saxon vocabulary in favor of
> 'saxonised' words of the leading languages, e.g. Dutch and Standard
> German.
> No- these words aren't really lost, but the mass of self-proclaimed
> users are unable to use them any more.
> If there are made interviews in Northern Germany asking people how
> familiar
> they are with LS you'll hear very often: "Yes- I am!" But when you try to
> talk with them, using the real and correct vocabulary you'll just hear:
> "Hem? What? Kannitverstaan!"
> A language giving up its vocabulary and its natural manifoldness is no
> longer a living language but an artificial, 'dry' medium to communicate.
> Yes- you could argue this should be the duty and aim of the schools, to
> make
> pupils learn the vocabulary. But then you just solve one problem but not
> the
> sum of them. And then you even didn't solve the conflict: which
> vocabulary???
>
> Just a little Ingvaeonic slang is not Low Saxon, for my opinion.
>
> Perhaps we should turn the clock back to the time of Middle Low Saxon-
> that
> could become a very interesting affair...
Yeah, right. Grown up in Dithmarschen, at the south-western coast of
Slesvig-Holsten, I'm hardly able to understand people from Wursten,
Eastern Friesland, Groningen, Drenthe, Westfalia or from the Harz, if they
talk fast. So what?
I'm neither able to understand people from Bavaria, Swabia nor from the
Eifel region, but I'm able to talk to them in a standard language: German.
So why not having a standardised Low Saxon? With a vocabulary composed of
*and comprising* its dialects? As things stand, we'll have difficulties to
gather a comprehensive vocabulary from all dialects in any case. If there
are double words, why not use all of them? In German, we also use
Brötchen, Semmeln, Schrippen usw. in parallel. Sure, any kind of Standard
Low Saxon will have to be a mixture, acceptable to all the world from
Grunnen to Aalbek on Usedom, from Abenraad un Esbarg in Denmark (there are
a few LS speakers north from the border left) to Bokelt un Baukem in North
Rhine-Westfalia, and possibly to the Plaudietsch and all the other
scatterd LS communities "de hele Werldt rundt". This so far hypothetical
Standard Low Saxon will be pronounced differently in different places,
like any other language. So, please, stop whining about different dialects
- they will survive, most probably. If not, at least Low Saxon, *our
language*, does - somehow. That's better than total extinction.

For me, that is a much better vision than not beeing able to order a
simple beer in a randomly chosen inn in medium sized towns like Flensburg,
Kiel or Braunschweig any more in only just a few years. If you don't share
this vision and indeed let the language rather die than change it to a
certain degree - then take your 'fate', let it alone and stop moaning. If
there is some affection left for the language, and not only for your 'old
days' - they indeed won't come back - then, too, stop moaning and *do*
something. What about travelling your local area, gathering "real and
correct" expressions, sayings, words, and commiting them to a broader
public? *That* would be of real use.

Mag ween, du hest recht, un dat hölpt allens nix. Dat kriegt wi to sehn,
wenn wi dat versöökt.

Man wenn wi nix doot un bloots muulsch rümstaht - denn is dit hier allens
fuurts bloots noch wat för de Spraakwetenschapers un Historienböker. Un
dat is seker.

So, un nu rappel di maal tosamen un do wat, vun nix kummt nemli nix.

Adjüüs,
Sönke

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From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Bravo un amen, Sönke!

Immo … quinimmo … sic … autem

Wat du partu nich wullt, nee, dat geiht nich.
De sien Moors al up 'n Pott hett, de steiht nich.
Frömdlandschen Knaster, den smööks' nich.
Wat dat dunnmaals nich geev, dat versööks' nich.
Wat du partu nich doon mags', dat kanns' nich.
De Muurbloom seggt: „Nee ... Ik danz nich."

Röögt di een an den ol'n Status Quo,
Smitts' em rut, maaks' de Gaarnpoort to.
Kümmt di een mit 'n neen Vörslag an,
Seggst eerst: „Nee!" un denn later „Ja, man ..."
Is di 'n Vörslag to snaaksch un to nee,
Simmeleerst nich, seggst stantepee: „Nee!"

                                 (c) 2007, R. F. Hahn


Immo … quinimmo … sic … autem (denuo)

Wat du partu nich wult, ney, dat gayt nich.
Dey syn maars al up 'n pot het, dey stayt nich.
Vrömdlandschen knaster, den smoyks' nich.
Wat dat dunmaals nich geyv', dat versoyks' nich.
Wat du partu nich doun mags', dat kans' nich.
Dey muerbloum segt: "Ney ... Ik dans nich."

Roygt dy eyn an den ol'n status kwou,
Smits' em ruut, maaks' dey gaarnpourt tou.
Kümt dy eyn mit 'n neyn voerslag an,
Segst eyrst: "Ney!" un den later "Ja, man ..."
Is dy 'n voerslag tou snaaksch un tou ney,
Simmeleyrst nich, segst stantepey: "Ney!"

                                 (c) 2007, R. F. Hahn

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

*
knaster = tobacco
man = only, but
Moors (maars) = backside, bottom
Muurbloom (muerbloum) = wallflower
partu = (partout) by all means
simmeleern (simmeleyrn) = to ponder
stantepee (stantepey) = right away
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