LL-L "Idiomatica" 2007.10.18 (05) [E/LS]
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Thu Oct 18 19:28:01 UTC 2007
L O W L A N D S - L - 18 October 2007 - Volume 05
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"
Beste Ben,
You wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> In my western US English, we use map references to refer to where we
> are or where we're going. "I'm down in Mexico right now." "I hope to
> go up to Phoenix for my birthday in November." "My aunt used to live
> back east."
>
> Here in Mexico they really don't use those. You don't hear "Estoy aquí
> arriba en Hermosillo". "Él es gringo y viene de Phoenix para abajo".
> They just don't use it. What's the origin of these usages and how
> widespread are they?
When trying to locate a certain town we will quite often use expressions
like "dör(re)p X is boven dör(re)p Y" in Brabantish. However, it merely
means that town X lies beyond town Y. Also used is "dör(re)p X is
on(d)er dör(re)p Y", which means that X is in Y's neighborhood.
Obviously, both descriptions bear no relation to any of the four
quarters of the compass.
Personally though, whenever I'm talking about a certain place, I will
always try to pin-point it on a mental map inside my head. As such, I
can then say whether it's north, south, west or east (or northwest...)
of another place. Most people around here don't do this however and the
names of the wind directions are only used when describing the weather:
eg. "scherpen, druëge wind oët 't oeëstn".
I do remember that the Chinese were using wind directions quite often
when explaining how to get somewhere, so they're probably using this
"mindmap" too. Also in cities that were not built along a grid pattern.
Just today, I noticed another example of the importance of mental
imaging. A fellow teacher told me that if he verbally asked students
with a French speaking background (in a school of the Dutch community),
to show on a ruler where "twee-honderd-zes-en-twintig millimeter" would
be, invariably they would point their finger at a spot somewhere around
the 26 cm mark. Probably, I guess, because in French (and English) the
number of hundreds, tens and units is arranged differently and most are
unable to mentally change the order.
Kind greetings,
Luc Hellinckx
----------
From: Jacqueline Bungenberg de Jong <Dutchmatters at comcast.net>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2007.10.18 (03) [E]
Re North, South etc.
Hi Ben, Ron.
Re Seattle Grid: And then there is of course East of the Mountains!
And in the Netherlands one of the historical divides is: "Ten Noorden en ten
Zuiden van de Grote Rivieren" (North and South of the big rivers -- Rhine,
Meuse and Waal – which run from East to West through the countryside). These
used to be thought of as the dividing line between the Northern (Protestant)
Netherlands and the (Catholic) South. It is also amazing how these rivers
have separated the different dialects. Jacqueline
----------
From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2007.10.18 (03) [E]
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Hi, Ben!
>
> In German and Low Saxon, the equivalents for "up" and "down" are used
In Scots, for longish journeys, we would say "up" or "doun" /dun/ for
travelling northwards or southwards respectively, eg:
"I'm awa up tae Aiberdeen."
"I'm awa doun tae Hawick."
Whereas travelling from the east side to the west side of the country or
vice versa would be described as "throu":
"I'm awa throu tae Glesga." (from Edinburgh or thereabouts).
We might say "ower" (over) for journeys across a few hills or over a
river:
I'm awa ower tae Kirkaldy." (from the Edinburgh side of the Forth).
For short journeys that are between towns/villages at perceptibly
different levels geographically we would use "up" or "doun" according to
whether it was an uphill or downhill journey.
For going into the city ("downtown") we would say we were going "up the
toun".
> Here in Seattle this makes a lot of sense because the city has been
> built on a close to perfect grit with streets running east-west and
> avenues north-south, and with districts referred to by the compass
> directions. (In conjunction with streets being predominantly numbered,
> this makes it very easy to get to previously unknown locations without
> a map if you get addresses such as "1578 12th Ave. N.E." = "house No.
> 78 on 12th Avenue where it is crossed by 15th Street").
Neat!
In my village, here in Somerset, all the streets also run north-west or
south-east, but it's all a single road zigzagging through the houses.
Each section has a different name: Bishopston, Middle Street, The
Borough, South Street and Yeovil Road, except that The Borough and South
Street are all one straight bit of road, and there's also "Pig Street"
leading off from all that but ending up nowhere. Not quite so neat,
then!
Yeovil has three parallel main streets: South Street, Middle Street, and
The Quedam. St Andrews in Scotland has the same structure and similarly
half-cocked logic: South Street, North Street and The Scores.
I've also lived in the new town of Cwmbran in Wales, but there seems to
have been no effort by the original planners at building that in a
logical manner either.
> A: I'm standing in front of the Starbuck's you said I should look for,
> but I can't see the store you told me about.
> B: Do you see the flower shop south of it?
> A: Yes.
> B: That's where you turn east.
Yes, here in the UK, finding somewhere other than Starbucks to go is
getting to be quite a task also! :)
Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/
----------
From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2007.10.18 (03) [E]
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com <sassisch at yahoo.com>>
> Subject: Idiomatica
>
> Hi, Ben!
>
> In German and Low Saxon, the equivalents for "up" and "down" are used
> also, with different forms for location and direction:
>
> * up (north or elevated)
> o Location
> + German: oben, droben
> + Low Saxon: baven
> o Direction (movement to or from):
> + German: hinauf, herauf, rauf
> + Low Saxon: rup, rop
>
> * down (south or low-lying)
> o Location
> + German: unten, drunten
> + Low Saxon: ünnen
> o Direction (movement to or from):
> + German: hinunter, herunter, runter
> + Low Saxon: rünner*
>
> * I don't think daal is used in this context. Or is it?
Johann Hinrich Fehrs in 'Maren'
<http://wikisource.org/wiki/Maren/Kapittel_Dreund%C3%B6rtig>:
"De Preußen weren op 'n Afmarsch, rasch rücken de Sleeswig-Holstener in
eer Stell, de Dänen dreben von Flensborg dal na 't Süden, bald müssen se
op 'nanner stöten, un denn gung 't op Leben un Dood."
Ernst Meyer in't Hambörger Avendblatt
<http://www.abendblatt.de/daten/2007/07/13/769792.html>:
"Dat Moor treck sik vun Kiebitzreeg hin bit dal na Bullendörp un heet:
dat Königsmoor."
En gewissen Herrn 'Slomox' op de plattdüütsche Wikipedia
<
http://nds.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskuschoon:Mekelnborg-V%C3%B6rpommersch_Platt
>:
"Vun Neehuus in grade Lien dal na Soltendieck löppt disse Grenz un dat
Wendland liggt dormit to'n groten Deel in oostnedderdüütsche Lannen."
Aver ik glööv, dat tellt nich ganz soveel as Fehrs ;-)
Ik heff noch mehr Stellen in't Internett funnen, man bi "dal na't Moor"
oder "dal na'n Beek" bedüüdt dat wohrschienlich nich 'koortentechnisch
dal', man 'höhenniveautechnisch dal'. Op jeden Fall kann dat so bruukt
warrn un warrt opminnst ok siet 1907 so bruukt (Fehrs sien Maren). För
"rünner" heff ik kene passliche Stell in't Internett funnen.
Wat achter dat Ganze achterstickt kann ik nich seggen, ik nehm nich an,
dat dat ut de Spraak vun de eenfachen Lüüd kummt, de hebbt nich so veel
op de Koorten keken.
Marcus Buck
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