LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.10.25 (03) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 October 2007 - Volume 03
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Roland Desnerck <desnerck.roland at skynet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.10.24 (06) [E]

Hi Lowlanders,
Dutch heeft "woonplaats" voor Siedlung, settlement.
Welnu, er is een verschil tussen "woonplaats" en "nederzetting". Een
"nederzetting": men heeft er zich gevestigd, men ziet er als het ware een
begin aan; bij "woonplaats" heb je dit niet. Bij nederzetting denkt men dat
er nog geen woonplaatsen aanwezig waren. Ooit hebben de Saksen zich op onze
kusten gevestigd, ze stichtten er nederzettingen, ze vonden er een
woonplaats.Het zijn dus Joodse nederzettingen op de Westelijke Jordaanoever,
die werden dan hun woonplaats. BTW: "zich vestigen" is dus een geschikte
woonplaats gezocht en gevonden hebben. "Vestigen" komt uit "vast".
"Siedlung" en "nederzetting"e leunen dus bij elkaar aan.
Toetnoasteki.
Roland Desnerck

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From: Lee Goldberg <leybl_goldberg at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.10.24 (09) [E/LS]

On the suggestion to apply the term 'Jewish villages' (dorpen) to Israeli
settlements on the occupied West Bank, am I the only one who feels that
"villages" designate rural communities (traditional peasant societies living
on agriculture) and "towns" designate urban ones (living from trade and
industry)?  Maybe it's the economist in me, but I always cringe when
American Jews translate "shtetl" (a diminutive of "shtot", 'city') as
"village".  And maybe it's the lingering feeling that my ancestors were so
culturally, linguistically, and even physically ("racially") different from
their non-Jewish neighbors in the "dorf" (a term also synonymous with
'countryside')?

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From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Hi to my buddies Lee and Roland, and hi to all!

You're making good points, guys. But we must bear in mind that words have a
way of semantically spreading or veering off.

"Village" and Dorf, for instance, yes, started off within a definite rural
context, but I feel that there are now differences in the way they are used.
"Children's village" and its German equivalent Kinderdorf, for instance, do
not necessarily come with rural connotations. If I understand them
correctly, they denote places at which children stay temporarily. In theory,
at least, these could be anywhere, even inside cities. I would go as far as
saying that they are the positive equivalent of "camp" and the now
shudder-ridden Lager.

I absolutely agree that Yiddish שטעטל shtetl ought not be translated as
"village," Lee. I have even heard people translate it as "ghetto," which
definitely is not the same. "Town" might be closest. "Community" doesn't
sound right either, because it can easily overlap with "congregation" in
this context, which would be closest to Yiddish קהילה kehile. This is why I
favor using shtetl as a loanword (which it is, even listed as such in
the Oxford
English Dictionary).

But then again, we get differences in what "town" means in different English
dialects. In American English it tends to include what in Europe is
"village" (even places with only a handful of houses), and Americas tend to
use the word "village" only in "Old World" contexts (e.g., "quaint English
village," "Bavarian village dance").  But if you say "town" in Europe,
people think of smaller cities or, in the American context, larger towns.
(American "town" might be closest in meaning to German Ort or Ortschaft.)

Of course, kolonie is convenient in many contexts. However, this word and
its equivalents come politically laden and in many cases denote the
occupation or take-over of entire regions, not just small communities. At
one time you might have gotten away with calling an East European shtetl a
"Jewish colony" (in analogy to Mennonite "colonies" in the same region),
because you are dealing with minority groups, thus not with a take-over but
simply with (new) settlements. But using this expression in a Middle Eastern
context would be a totally different matter because Israel is a power.

Roland, thanks for pointing out what I understand is the difference between
Dutch woonplaats and Dutch nederzetting: their connotations being
"well-established" v "new" respectively. A nederzetting may eventually
become a woonplaats, such as in your example of Saxon nederzettingen on
Flanders' coast that later became woonplaatsen.  This is why, in the
apparent absence of a convenient equivalent of nederzetting in Low Saxon I
suggested optionally using clarifying ney (nee, nie(g)) 'new' ((nee)
Wahnsteed') for 'settlement'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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