LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.10.25 (06) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

L O W L A N D S - L  -  25 October 2007 - Volume 06
Song Contest: lowlands-l.net/contest/ (- 31 Dec. 2007)
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From: Danette & John Howland <dan_how at msn.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2007.10.25 (03) [D/E]

Hi, Ron.

You recently wrote:
""Village" and Dorf, for instance, yes, started off within a definite rural
context, but I feel that there are now differences in the way they are
used."

And also:
"But then again, we get differences in what "town" means in different
English dialects. In American English it tends to include what in Europe is
"village" (even places with only a handful of houses), and Americas tend to
use the word "village" only in "Old World" contexts ( e.g., "quaint English
village," "Bavarian village dance").  But if you say "town" in Europe,
people think of smaller cities or, in the American context, larger towns.
(American "town" might be closest in meaning to German Ort or Ortschaft.)

This got me thinking about the peculiar way we use the word "village" in
Alaska to mean what would otherwise be called towns in U.S. English. In
Alaska a "fishing village" is an unincorporated township in which fishing is
the main thrust of the economy. More often, when we refer to "my village,"
"the village," or "village Alaska" we mean Native American settlements (I
think I prefer the word "settlings"). This usage suggests that, to early
English-speaking euroalaskans, native settlements were perceived to be
different from "towns."

As in some other parts of the country, I believe the only form of municipal
incorporation is the city--there are officially no townships. This means
that some of our "cities" are villages only big enough to have a post
office.

Be well.

John

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon"

 Beste Ron,

You wrote:

 This is why, in the apparent absence of a convenient equivalent of
nederzetting in Low Saxon I suggested optionally using clarifying ney (nee,
nie(g)) 'new' ((nee) Wahnsteed') for 'settlement'.


What about using a Northern equivalent of "Niederlassung"? Nedderlatinge?

I know "Niederlassung" nowadays often has economic connotations, but it used
to be very neutral...see Grimm about "niederlassen":

*d)*  *seinen aufenthalt, seinen wohnsitz nehmen, sich ansiedeln:* *mhd.*

mîn volc und mîne ritterschaft
die sende ich hein ze lande wider
und lâჳe ich mich hie bî iu nider.
         *K**ONRAD* *troj. krieg *20512; *nhd.* ein sich da niedergelassener
töpfer. *R**ÜLING* *beschr. von Nordheim *306; sich niederlassen an, in (*mit
dativ und accusativ*): sich an ein ort setzen und niderlassen, *considere
apud aliquem locum* *M**AALER*; sich an einem ort heuslich niederlassen, *sedem
alicubi sibi parare, domicilium collocare* *S**TIELER*; in einer einöde
wonen oder sich niderlassen, sich in ein land niederlassen und wonen. *M**
AALER*; wisset, dasz ich willens bin mich in dem königreich Portugal nieder
zu lassen, und daselbst in trawren mein zeit zu vertreiben. *buch d. liebe*256
a; sie Bd. 13, Sp. 774
 wurden .. bewogen, sich .. in Weimar niederzulassen. *G**ÖTHE* 37, 331; wir
wollen uns in den böhmischen wäldern niederlassen. *S**CHILLER* 2, 231
(*räuber,
trauersp.* 1, 6).

and "Niederlassung":

*das sich niederlassen, sich festsetzen, ansiedeln, sowie der ort der
ansiedelung, requies, domicilium, habitatio* *S**TIELER*: der kaiser
wiederholte .. seine mahnung, dasz er (*Wallenstein*) sich gegen den
Donaustrom ziehen solle, die gefährliche niederlassung des herzogs von
Weimar an Österreichs grenzen zu hindern. *S**CHILLER* 8, 333; die
verheirathung einer tochter oder die niederlassung eines sohnes.
*G**ARVE* *anm.
zu Cic. de officiis *2, 234; die depossedirten wirtemb. adeligen müssen
wenigstens einen ihrer söhne zum dienst oder zur niederlassung im königreich
bestellen. *Alemannia* 11, 184 (*vom jahre* 1814); wenn ich .. die
gesellschaft .. in die niederlassung einführte. *H**. V. **K**LEIST* 4, 152
*H.;*

lasz eine schaar von Römern gleich
sich in den wald zerstreun, der dieser niederlassung,
Cheruskas hauptplatz, Teutoburg, umgiebt.
         2, 111 (*die Hermannsschlacht* 3, 5); nur da und dort haftete ein
heller schein ..., die niederlassungen (*wohnungen*) der menschen andeutend.
*S**CHEFFEL* *Ekkeh. *65; ein .. rosenfeld, das die niederlassung und
pflanzstadt von grasmücken und nachtigallen schien. *J**. **P**AUL* *Tit. *2,
51.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks a lot, John. Those are interesting bits of information. I'm glad you
keep the flag of your magnificent state flying in this gathering, and I hope
you'll keep feeding us with more Alaskanisms as we go, including
peculiarities of Native varieties of English.

I have a feeling that the association of the words "village" and "Native"
has spread beyond Alaska. Or is it that we here in Seattle are more in touch
with Alaska and Western Canada, or perhaps "village" and "Native" within a
North American context is more common but is particularly heard within
Alaskan contexts because Native villages are more common there, also outside
reservations?  It seems to me that I have heard it used, alternative to
"Native town," with reference to other parts as well.

I used to have Alaskan neighbors that came from just outside Barrow (Iñupiaq
*Ukpeagvik* "place of snowy owls hunt"), the northernmost city in the world.
Their native language was Iñupiaq. They even referred to Barrow as
"village," even though with ca 20,000 inhabitants it's a town at least, if
not a city, certainly for local conditions. They did say "city" for Seattle,
though. Unfortunately, I didn't find out what they called Fairbanks and
Anchorage.

Hi, Luc, and thanks!

*Niäderlaoteng or something like it would probably work in the Westphalian
dialects of Low Saxon, since most of them have retained cognates of the
suffic -ing. Most Northern Low Saxon dialects have lost itheirs for some
reason.  If pressed, people will borrow German -ung where the usual
substitute doesn't work (as in this case, since it's not an abstract noun).
This is what we try to avoid. Hence the contortions.

Similarly, the obvious choice *Tieding (cognate of English "tiding" =
"news") as a counterpart of German Zeitung 'newspaper' doesn't work. So you
hear some people say for instance Blatt ~ Bladd 'leaf', 'paper',
'newsletter' (cognate of English "blade"), while other people borrow the
German word Zeitung. In Middle Saxon, tyding(e) was in fact used to mean
'news'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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