LL-L "Language learning" 2008.04.16 (04) [E]

Wed Apr 16 20:41:16 UTC 2008

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 16 April 2008 - Volume 04
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2008.04.16 (02) [E]

>From heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk

Paul wrote: I've certainly heard it, but always put it down to simple
grammatical/lexical error.

I agree with Paul! As the large majority of British English speakers have
not had their language consistently or clearly or fundamentally explained to
them i.e. they have not been taught to examine it at school / college, their
understanding and use is based primarily on what they have heard, with a
smattering of old grammar chestnuts which still seem to be half taught/
absorbed and half understood

i.e.  you and I - there seems to be an overwhelming feeling throughout the
UK media that 'you and me' is wrong 100% of the time and that at all times '
you and I' should be used. this leads to EVEN RADIO 4's Today programme
presenters saying " between you and I"  "for you and I"   GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

Even more of a GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR is the inability to use 'less/fewer'
correctly. 'Fewer' appears to be on the way out, as more and more
journalists / media presenters are happy to use 'less' for both singular and
plural. So instead of 'Less cake, fewer slices' they say 'less cake, less
slices'.

Some people can be terribly sensitive about their own language and are often
unjustifiably critical about their own standards. They  feel acutely that
they MUST produce "grammatically correct English" if they are not to be
judged negatively. Unfortunately this can often lead them into misapplying
half understood grammar in the belief that using it adds cachet and
correctness to their language - in fact quite the reverse! The paramount
example here is 'whom', which some people add  - at random it sometimes
seems - to their speech and writing - usually quite in the wrong place!  "I
wrote to the man, whom replied to me immediately"
??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have fought the school of thought for the last 40 years that says no-one
speaks their mother tongue incorrectly: they all speak their own language
perfectly. This has led to teachers not daring to either correct incorrect
grammar or explain why it is incorrect and what should be said.

Bought/brought are common examples of errors that when explained - even to
adults - gets the reply: "Well I never! BRing / BRought   Buy / Bought
it's quite simple when it's explained like that!" and from then on they get
it right!

Here endeth the sermon! :-)

love

Heather
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language learning

Hi, Heather!

GRRRRRRR ... indeed! Never mind giving "sermons"! It's good for the "soul."
Here comes the baritone part of the chorus.

Your observations tally with mine, also what you said about "it's quite
simple when it's explained like that!" I hear this phrase a lot.

I suspect that decades, even centuries, of atrocious language teaching
methods have been culturally internalized. People have an idea of language
learning as involving a vast, amorphous mass of unconnected pieces of
information and rules. It tends to make them shy away from anything like
that, and it gets even worse when "foreign" is involved, "weird" sounds,
scripts, etc. Although teaching methods have been vastly improved in many
quarters, most people are not over the fears of the past. It did not help
that in the 1960s and 1970s educators decided to "revolutionize" teaching by
throwing out anything systematic and theoretical ("rote learning") and
emphasizing "fun" to a degree that classes were turned into sideshow
entertainment. What most people have not caught on to in the meantime is
that learning of systems and enjoyment are not incompatible with each other,
that learning of *systems* is so much more efficient than amassing snippets
of information in a haphazard fashion. Alas, "grammar" is still a bit of a
dirty word.

And there is the factor of fear and insufficient confidence conflicting with
a need for status and economic betterment. Oftentimes the very
self-conscious end up overcompensating or simply winging it the best they
can, often faking the sound of good education. Sometimes I can see how they
suffer, and my heart goes out to them. Things could be so much less
stressful if only ...

I see a very similar situation in computer skills learning, and especially
in anything approaching computer programming (which involves a type of
language proficiency also). Confident and experienced people try to get the
large picture first, acquire key rules and then have a relatively easy time
figuring out the system and thus the details. Timid people try to learn
details first, and most of them drown in the flood of them, perhaps never to
get to a point at which they can see the large picture.

So that was my sermon.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

•

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