LL-L "Etymology" 2008.04.20 (07) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 20 April 2008 - Volume 07
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.04.19 (05) [E]

 From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.04.19 (03) [E]
*Reinhard*
*I've got a simpler explanation. I suspect "firth" is from the ON dative
<firði>, which is often found in place names because locative prepositions
<á> and <í> take the dative.*
- Show quoted text -
*Dan*
 From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
"You're more than welcome, Sandy, as far as I am concerned.
>>"Firth" is from "fjord"? The things you learn!<<
Well, Old Norse has *fjorðr *(also spelled *fj**ǫ**rðr*, pronounced [ˈfjɔrðr
̩], > Modern Icelandic *fjörður*). There's a fricative in there, hence the
"th".
My theory is that the donor variety ("Old Danish"? "Old Norwegian"?), which
may have already cast off the old *-r* (or else people recognized it as a
foreign morpheme), had an umlauted version (**fjörð* [fjœrð] or **f(j)yrð*[f(j)
ʏrð]). This might explain the vowel in "firth".
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron"
----------

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.04.19 (03) [E]

>>Ron wrote:
>>My theory is that the donor variety ("Old Danish"? "Old Norwegian"?),
which may have already cast off the old *-r* (or else people recognized it
>>as a foreign *morpheme),* had an umlauted version (**fjörð* [fjœrð] or **
f(j)yrð* [f(j)ʏrð]). This might explain the vowel in "firth".

None of the modern languages umlauts the /ö/ (o-with-tail) here though, and
although /j9/ usually became /jö/ by progressive umlaut in continental
Scandinavian, this did often not happen before /r/. (instead, usually the
vowel got lengthened). Both Swedish, Danish and Norwegian still have
'fjord'. (eg. also "hjort", deer and not hjört)

Couldn't it rather be due to the inflected forms? fjordhr is an u-stem, and
thus the paradigm goes as follows: (N-A-G-D)
Fjör*dh*r
fjördh
fjardhar
firdhi

firdhir
fjördhu > firdhi
fjardha
fjördhum

where ö is o-with-tail and dh is "eth"
the -i- in English could come from the plural, or from the dative (which was
used often, f.ex. í firdhi, in the fjord)

Diederik

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

That's great, guys! Most convincing! Thanks a lot.

It's also great to see our Dan being enticed into the open once in a while.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

I assume all these words ultimately relate to English "ford" (which was
vathr in ON, "wath" in many northern English place names - and related to
"wade").

Paul Finlow-Bates

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Elsie,

Under "Games" you asked if "chow" the dog has anything to do with "chow" the
food.

The quick answer is "yes."

This type of dog (Chinese 鬆獅犬, Mandarin *sōngshī quǎn* "fluffy lion dog") --
which, incidentally, has been shown to be the oldest surviving breed of dog
according to DNA research -- has been considered edible in China ever since
it arrived there from Siberia via Manchuria.

"Chow" or actually "chow chow," is derived from China Coast Pidgin where it
means "food" or "eating." Many believe the word came from 雑 'mixed'
(Mandarin *zá*, Cantonese *zaap*, as in "chop suei", something like
"assorted scraps"). I'm more inclined to assume "chow" came from Chinese 炒
'fry', 'stir-fry' (Mandarin *chǎo*, Cantonese *cǎao*, as in "chow mian"
'stir-fried noodles').

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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