LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.22 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

=======================================================================

 L O W L A N D S - L * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226

 http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.php

 Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org - lowlands.list at gmail.com

 Commands ("signoff lowlands-l" etc.): listserv at listserv.net

 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html

 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html

 Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]

 Administration: lowlands.list at gmail.com or sassisch at yahoo.com


 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
 sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.


 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West) Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)

=======================================================================

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 21 December 2008 - Volume 08
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please set the encoding mode to Unicode (UTF-8).
If viewing this in a web browser, please click on
the html toggle at the bottom of the archived page
and switch your browser's character encoding to Unicode.
===========================================


From: Sandy Fleming <sandy at scotstext.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.19 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Orthography
>
> Sandy,
>
> In this context, if not all contexts, I meant by "learners" everyone
> that learns a new word or expression. This can be a second-language
> learner or a native speaker learner, or a researcher. If the native
> orthography is inadequate to tell the learner the pronunciation then a
> secondary system needs to be utilized in any reference work worth
> consulting.

So are you saying that stress should be marked in everyday Russian
orthography for the sake of native speakers as well?

That vowels should always be written in Arabic?

> No such additional information is necessary in languages in which the
> regular orthography does all that is required to know the
> pronunciation, unless there are exceptions in foreign names. This is
> the case for instance in Czech, Estonian, Finnish, Karelian,
> Hungarian, Polish and Slovak.

I don't know all those languages but I do (or I should probably say "did
once"!) know Czech. As usual, generalised statements only seem to hold
water until we run into a language I'm familiar with.

An important point about Czech, I think, is that the sounds of the
language lend themselves to a simple orthographic system: it has the
five basic vowels, long or short, and a few diphthongs. The stress is
almost completely regular (well, at least learners won't run into too
many problems if they assume that it is).

It's true that Czech orthography is reasonably regular. I think it's
true what you say: if you see a word you can pronounce it, although the
rules for getting the voicings and devoicings right are at the level
where this seems easy to native speakers but not to true learners.

As for the other way round, it's not at all true that if you hear a word
in Czech you'll know how to write it, as evinced by the many mistakes in
"greengrocers' Czech" around Prague, particularly with respect to the
u-circle, voicings and devoicings and consonantal prepositions.

And not every language lends itself to orthographic purity so easily.
There's the objection in English that it's not easy to devise an
orthography that will work for all English speakers, as I've been
saying, but it's worse than that. In English (and to a slightly lesser
extent in Scots), people using different dialects perceive unstressed
vowels to have been dropped and others pronounce them. Unstressed vowels
tend to be pronounced as a schwa, making it difficult to decide how to
spell a word from the sound of it alone, and this varies widely too. And
then again their vowel and diphthong systems clash.

I think this sort of thing is the motivation for hanging on to
etymological roots in orthographic systems.

So no, I don't count natives filling in their knowledge of the language
with a few new words learned from time to time count as "learners". The
fact that some reference works aren't good enough is no reason to add
stuff to the orthography itself. The only improvements needed are in the
reference works.

I also discount language researchers: they should be in the field, not
in the library  :)

Sandy Fleming
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Sandy:

So are you saying that stress should be marked in everyday Russian
orthography for the sake of native speakers as well?

That vowels should always be written in Arabic?


No, Sandy. What I mean is that the full orthography or added auxiliary
notation should be shown as a minimum for key words or new vocabulary items
in reference material, which is what is done in all good dictionaries and
textbooks.

All my Russian dictionaries show stress assignment in all keywords and all
Russian textbooks show stress assignment at least with the introduction of
new words. My Hebrew and Arabic reference and teaching material show the
vowels, while not in all texts, in all vocabulary introductions.

Dictionaries and encyclopedias meant to be for native speakers as well ought
to have pronunciation help for keywords as well, because native speakers,
too, don't necessarily know the pronunciation of spelled words that are new
to them. All better English ones have this.

If ordinary spelling does not fully indicate it, pronunciation ought to be
shown in some other way in reference and teaching material.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

•

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20081222/2464c377/attachment.htm>