LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.26 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 26 December 2008 - Volume 02
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]

I'm always reminded of a line from one of the Gospels (don't ask which one),
quoted in Anthony Burgess's "Language made Plain":

"Christ stood by the bier".

Try spelling that one phonetically!

Perhaps any Irish or French speakers can tell us how they feel about
phonetic spelling? Their orthography contains far more redundant letters
than English, and certainly than Dutch.

Paul


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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Hi, Paul!

"Christ stood by the bier".

Try spelling that one phonetically!


Phonetic? That would depend on the dialect; e.g.
IPA: kraɪst ˌstʊdætðə ˈbɪɚ
 SAMPA: kraIst %stUd{dD@ "bI@`

IPA: kɻaɪst ˌstʊdætðə ˈbiːɻ
 SAMPA: kr\`aIst %stUd{dD@ "bir\`


Phonemic (which is what we've been talking about) something like this,
depending on the system:

*Kraist stud at ðə bir.*
 or you could make it more "historical" and without "special" characters:
*Kriist stud at dhe bir.*
or with "special" characters:
*Krīst stŭd at ð**ĕ** bir.*

In other words, written representation would equal spoken representation.
Etymological (or historical) information is not provided in speech, and it
would not be in writing either. If the system is so designed, phonemic
representation (which deals with the basic, underlying level) would be
applicable to a range of dialects, unlike phonetic representation which
(dealing with the surface, that which is produced by application of
phonological rules) is dialect-specific and is only used for scientific and
didactic purposes.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Roger Hondshoven <rhondshoven at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.25 (01) [E]

From: Diederik Masure <didimasure at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2008.12.24 (02) [E]

In 1946 the Spelling Commission for the Dutch language abolished the
distinction between e.ee and o/oo in open syllables as in *regen/deelen,
mogen/hooge.* But it failed, for obscure reasons, to do away with similar
distinctions between *rijk/reis, gauw/*gouw with homonynous diphthongs.

Regards,

Roger Hondshoven

RE: well, for me they are two completely different sounds;) and I suppose
half of the other speakers of Dutch dialects here still distinguish between
e/ee and o/oo as well.

(but of course the spoken standard doesnt, that's true - but older
Antwerpian people will still stretch out the second one a bit longer even
when (trying to) talk "properly"!)

And ei/ij, ou/au etc. are indeed only distinguished between in a few
unsignificant village dialects, but when it comes to the original point of
the discussion this is no problem, as learners/people using dictionaries or
reference works still without any exception can deduct the pronunciation.
Only native speakers have problems here. Diederik

I would strongly object to referring to languages or dialects as
insignificant, be they spoken by less than a thousand people or half a
million. A rural dialect deserves as much interest as that of a big city.

Of course, you're absolutely right when you state that dialect speakers
clearly distinguish between words previously written with e/ee, o/oo,
between words written with *ij* and *ei*, *au* and *ou.* But that hardly
wasn't my point when I was discussing those (weird) spelling issues. I was
looking at the subject purely from the point of view of the standard
language, and particularly the clash between pronunciation and orthography.

Best regards,

Roger Hondshoven
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