LL-L "Etymology" 2008.02.01 (03) [D/E]

Fri Feb 1 16:34:44 UTC 2008

L O W L A N D S - L  -  30 January 2008 - Volume 03
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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.31 (05) [E]

Beste Ingmar,

You wrote:
> "Het mens" is one individual human being, both man
> or woman, but it can also mean "woman" in a more negative or endearing
> sense.
Is "het mens" nowadays still in use for one individual male human being in
certain dialects?

"Mens" can be viewed as a nominalization of the "man-s" adjective; would
this explain the neuter gender? Maybe analogous to for example:

"Het rebelse is ons niet vreemd"
"Het manse in een vrouw boven halen"

I would tend to interpret "man-s" as "man-like", "appending to man"; as such
it would be difficult to use for man proper. Maybe this reflects the
biblical idea that woman was created from the rib of man? [Rest assured,
this is not my personal belief, I'm just trying to reconstruct the original
meaning of "mens".]

The evolution in English is interesting; first man/wer/wif for respectively
mankind/man/woman. Then "wer" became obsolete and was replaced by "man".
"Wif" became "wif-man" > "woman".
Note the similarity with Dutch "vrouwmens" ("e vraamins", no pejorative
meaning here).
"Wer" (~ Latin vir), we can still find in "werewolf", a "man-wolf".
Regarding the popularity of "wolf" in many Germanic names, I found
http://www.etymonline.com/wolf.php to be a very interesting article.

This reminds me of a Brabantish expression "zijne wolventand komt boven",
which is said of older males becoming vicious and grumpy. It's not said of
anybody younger than 40, so maybe traditionally women believed that a
slumbering wolf was hiding in every male???  ;-)

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.31 (07) [E]

Ron/ Reinard wrote

A "swede" is a rutabaga in other English-speaking countries (Brassica
napobrassica, or Brassica napus var. napobrassica).

German *Steckrübe*, Dutch *koolraap*, Low Saxon *Wruck*, *Ramanke, Rutabaga,
Smultrööv'*, etc.

So what's the difference between a swede and a kohlrabi ( see Dutch word)?

re recipes

I am astonished so close to Burns night that no-one from north of the Border
has rushed in to remind people of that essential food of 'mashed neeps' to
accompany the haggis. ( at least I think that's what it is called)

My favourite is mixed mash of potatoes and swede  or carrots/swede/parsnip
or carrots/parsnip ( essential in this household to eat with Christmas
turkey)

bw

Heather

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2008.01.31 (08) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>  Subject:Delectables
>
[...]
> German *Steckrübe*, Dutch *koolraap*, Low Saxon
> *Wruck*, *Ramanke*, *
> Rutabaga*, *Smultrööv'*, etc.

Hallo Reinhard,

De woorden *Wruck* en *Ramanke* trekken wel de
aandacht. Is over deze twee woorden iets meer te
zeggen?

> Rutabagas used to be served with practically every
> main meal, pretty much
> like potatoes. (I wonder if they preceded potatoes
> as a staple before
> potatoes were introduced from the Americas.)

Nee, dat waren de pastinaken.

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: JRodenburg at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2008.01.31 (08) [E]

In a message dated 1/31/2008 6:51:25 PM Central Standard Time,
lowlands.list at GMAIL.COM writes:
> Rutabagas used to be served
Thank you Ron for run down. I'd love to hear your take on potatoes. The
introduction of potatoes into German lands is quite interesting. John

Viele Grüße aus Illinois
John Rodenburg

Rodenburg (Tarmstedt, Amt Rotenburg (Wümme), Hannover)
Brunkhorst (Stemmen, Amt Rotenburg (Wümme), Hannover)
Werner (Langen, Hesse-Darmstadt),
Steinke (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
Krause (Kreis Schlochau, Pommern)
Schröder (Warsow, Mecklenburg-Schwerin),
Meyer (Eitzendorf, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Hinkeldey (Wechold, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Zum Mallen (Schierholz, Kreis Hoya, Hannover)
Röhrdanz (Mecklenburg-Schwerin)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

So now we've somehow crossed the "Delectables" and "Etymology" borderline.
Ah, well ...

Yeah, lets answer John's question about the introduction of potatoes under
"Delectables."

John, according to Theo, it was parsnip (Dutch *pastinaak*, German *
Pastinake*) that used to be the staple before potatoes.

Hmm ... in "parsnip" there's that "nip" again, related to Scots neep. It's
from Latin nāpus 'turnip' which gave now obsolete English "nape" ~ "neep" ~
"nepe," via Old English *nǣp*. "Parsnip" is not directly derived from it but
is influenced by it, apparently from *pastinaca *(perhaps **past-nape*).

And we have "turnip" (Dutch *knolraab *(!), Low Saxon *royv'* (Rööv'),
German *Rübe* or *Speiserübe*), which is believed to contain "turn" because
of the shape (like the creation of a turner).

I assume that Dutch *raap*, Low Saxon *royv'* (*Rööv' < Röve*) and German *
Rübe* are related. Old German has *rāba *and *ruoba*, and Old English has *
rōfe*. Hmm ... This is related to Latin *rāpum* and English "rape*."* I
wonder it those are related to Old Saxon *rāƀa *(*rāba ~ rāva*) 'spoke (of a
wheel)' in a reverse way. See? "turn," "turner"? Turners used to make
spokes! Is this brilliant, or what? ;-) All right! Feel free to destroy my
dream!

Heather, this may partly answer your question. Dutch *kool* (Low Saxon *kaal
* (*Kahl*), German *Kohl*) is *brassica*, the cabbage plants, cruciferous
plants < Latin *caulis*. I assume *knol* is a lump, tuber or corm (cf. Low
Saxon *knül* (*Knüll*), German *Knolle*).

"Kohlrabi" (*Brassica oleracea* L. convar. *acephala* (DC.) Alef. var. *
gongylodes* L., Modern German *Kohlrabi*) apparently comes from dialectical
German: from 16th century *koll(**e)**râwî* < Italian plural *cavoli* (~ *
cauli*) *rape* (singular *cavolo rapa*). In earlier German it was called *
Rübkohl* as well. Dutch has *koolrabi*, as opposed to *koolraap* for
'swede', 'rutabaga'

Apparently, American English got "rutabaga" from Swedish *rotabagge* (which
contains the word for "root"). It used to be known as "Swedish turnip,"
hence non-American English "swede."

Theo, if I didn't know that *Ramanke* is specific to Low Saxon of Osnabrück
(Joachim's "Osna-Saxon"), I'd have sworn it was of Slavic origin. I really
don't know where those Osna-Saxons got this. Could it have something to do
with Rome and Roman (or *Waals*), with the *-ke* diminutive (as if
Dutch **romeinke
*~ **romeintje*)? (Brilliant or off the rocker again?)

I have no real idea about Low Saxon *Wruck* for "swede," Theo. There's the
verb *wrucken* 'to struggle', 'to work hard' (apparently related to the
group to which English "wreak" belongs), but I can't see any connection
there.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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