LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.05 (01) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L  -  05 January 2008 - Volume 01
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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (09) [A/E]

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (03) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

By the way, for some strange reason the cognate word for "people" (Old
English *léode*, Old Northumbrian
*líoda*) seems to have disappeared from English and Scots also. In English,
it disappeared at the end of the Middle English period ( e.g., *Fra hys kyn
till ane wncouth lede*, Wintoun Chronicles, 1425). In Scots it held on to
the early modern stage (e.g., *For thai me hayt mar na Sotheroun leid*,
Henry Wallace, 1714).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

I guess we had (and retained) "folc" in various forms, and borrowed the
French "people" as a synonym.  Maybe "lede" just got redundant?  I don't
know if Norse had any "lede"-like word, but they did have "folk"; if English
settles on a Germanic word it is often an Old English one reinforced by
Norse.  For example we use "tree" rather than "beam" because ON and OE had a
version of the former.  Beam now only survives as a special meaning, and in
tree names like Hornbeam.

Paul Finlow-Bates

Interestingly enough, a similar thing has happened in North Frisian, where
Danish/Jutish had a strong influence and people often were bilingual or
trilingual (Frisian, Jutish, Low Saxon; and now we add standard Danish and
standard German in the mix as well...) and often Frisian there either has
old loans (keere = to drive, to ride, from køre, which still underwent
unrounding as "real" Frisian words) or preserved words that were reinforced
by contact, like "knif" for knife (WF has "knyft" for large knife (as for
bread and meat), and "mês" for a smaller one). They do say "buum" etc for
tree (WF beam).

Henno Brandsma

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From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2008.01.04 (09) [A/E]

From: R. F. Hahn < sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

By the way, this sg. *-man* -> pl. *-luyd'* system seems to be common to the
"Low German" group (Low Franconian and Low Saxon); e.g., Low Saxon *
timmerman* -> *timmerluyd'* (* Timmermann *-> *Timmerlüüd*') 'capenter(s)',
*varensman* -> *varensluyd'* (*Fahrensmann* -> *Fahrenslüüd'*)
'seafarer(s)', *koupman* -> *koupluyd' * (*Koopmann* -> *Kooplüüd'*)
'merchant(s)'.

And then it's the common, albeit not only, plural marker in the following
cases: *man* -> *mans* ~ *mansluyd'* (* Mann* -> *Manns* ~ *Mannslüüd'*)
'man/men', *vrou* ~ *vru* -> *vroun* ~ *vruun* ~ *vrouns ~ vruuns *~ *
vrounslüüd'* ~ *vruunslüüd'* (*Fro ~ Fru -> Froon ~ Fruun ~ Froons ~ Fruuns
~ Frounslüüd' ~ Fruunslüüd' *) 'woman/women'. So one of the choices is like
English "menfolk" and "womenfolk" respectively.

How about Frisian and Limburgish, and is it native if it does exist there?

In WF it seems to be native: man [mOn] - manlju [pronounced [mO:lj@], frou -
froulju [frO:lj@], timmerman - timmerlju, farrensman - farrenslju,
seeman - seelju, keapman - keaplju.
Froulju en manlju are the usual plurals, although mannen also occurs, and
just "man" in counting: "ik ferwachtsje twa man op besite", where it can
just
mean two people, in this context. The latter also occurs in Dutch and many
of its varieties.

Groetnis,

Henno Brandsma
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