LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.27 (01) [E]

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Travis Bemann <tabemann at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.26 (03) [E]

> From: Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder at WORLDONLINE.NL>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.23 (03) [E]
>
> What is that something to be said for calling German etc. "South Germanic"
> instead of West Germanic?
>
> I can imagine a few things myself of course: the High German consonant
> shift, dative and accusative pronouns (mir-mich), pronouns ending in -r
> (er, wir, ihr), a part of lexicon, e.a.

I would fundamentally call these things conservatisms that happened to
survive in High German which were lost in the rest of West Germanic or
High German-specifc innovations postdating the definite separation of
the primary branches of the Germanic languages. Take the merger of
accusative and dative pronoun forms. It is clear that such really does
not form a primary-branch type splitting of West Germanic, as Early
Old English actually preserved distinct accusative and date pronouns;
rather such forms actually merged in Late Old English (albeit being
preserved in poetic uses). Hence the merger of accusative and dative
pronouns is likely more just a coincidental and or areal innovation
which High German just happened to not participate in until rather
late (as there are High German dialects which today have merged the
accusative and dative pronouns).

> But what we should not forget is that present day German is much closer
> related to Dutch and Low Saxon than English is. A Dutchman can understand
> German without previous learning, so can a Low Saxon, but they don't have
> a clue when an Englishman is speaking (or writing) without having learned
> his language first.
> It would rather be a division between Continental West Germanic, including
> German, and Insular West Germanic, including English.

>From a synchronic standpoint, I would have to strongly agree. The
Anglic languages, while genetically being unequivocably West Germanic,
have clearly taken a separate path from the rest of West Germanic (and
even the Frisian languages). The matter is that one could consider all
of continental West Germanic and even the Frisian languages to have
formed a Sprachbund in which Anglic was not really included. Hence the
Anglic languages have basically diverged from the rest of West
Germanic while the Low German and High German languages stayed far
more cohesive as a group together.

> So I wonder whether we should stick to relations that existed maybe 1000
> or more years ago to classify these languages, Reinhard.

The matter is that if one is to treat things from a purely genetic
standpoint things are still not so simple. The matter is that neither
the split between Anglo-Frisian and the rest of West Germanic nor the
split between High German and the rest of West Germanic can be really
said to be the fundamental "root-level" split in West Germanic. For
starters, West Germanic already formed a dialect continuum even before
either split occurred in the first place. Secondarily, both splits
basically separated out sections of the existing West Germanic dialect
continuum (and not necessarily even in line with preexisting
isoglosses either), leaving the remainder, the Low German languages,
as being basically paraphyletic. Of the Low German languages, their
common features are more a matter of shared conservatisms and later
shared areal features than really forming any kind of root-level
branch of West Germanic at the genetic level.

> I agree that the Benrath Line is quite indistinct in the said area. The
> question is what criteria to use in distinguishing Low Franconian
varieties
> from Ripuarian and other Central Franconian varieties. The labels "Dutch"
> and "German" ought not enter this discussion in my opinion.

This is one of many reasons to consider the split between High German
and the rest of West Germanic as being overlaid upon preexisting West
Germanic dialect variation rather than as being a true root-node split
of West Germanic

•

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