LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (02) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L List]

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L O W L A N D S - L  - 28 June 2008 - Volume 03
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From: Joachim Kreimer-de Fries <Kreimer at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2008.06.28 (03) [E/Berl.]

Hey Ron & alle,

Am 27.06.2008 um 23:25 schrieb R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Do you think that in the Brandenburg dialects of Berlin /ee/ and /ey/ were
leveled to /ee/, and /oo/ and /ou/ to /oo/?


perhaps I misunderstood this question in my first answer (see below).

If the question was about the original (Low) Saxon Language of old
Berlin/Cöln-upon-Spree until the 15th century (Märkisch Platt) then the
answer should perhaps be enhanced and more differentiated:

According to Agathe Lasch there are three types of Middle Low Saxon (=mnd.)
ê that were in LS-Berlinish (right?) written i and spoken diphtongized /îᵉ/:

type 1: mnd. brêf, LS-Berl. brif /brîᵉf/ [engl. letter]
type 2: mnd. bêden, LS-Berl. biden /bîᵉden/ [engl. to bid]
type 3: mnd. sên LS-Berl. sin /sîᵉn/ [engl. to see]

Don't ask me about the 3 types, I don't know, also Lasch's
"Mittelniederdeutsche Grammatik" at this (and many points) is too
complicated for me.

Nevertheless in *stên & **mênen (ê-type 5) according to Agathe Lasch the ê
/ee/ in LS-Berlinian were long monophtong IPA [e:], even if sometimes
written "ei"!!!*

Mnd. ô has 3 types, too (Lasch, Mnd. Grammatik § 158, after Seelmann, Nd.
Jn. 18, 141), thereoff:

ô¹ = german. ô, got. as. ô, ahd. ua, uo,
as in mnd. bôk, LS-Berl. buk /buºk/ Berl. Buch [engl. book]

ô² = german. au, got. au, as. ô, ahd. ou, ô,
as in mnd. lôpen, LS-Berl. lôpen IPA[o:] or [ɔu]?  Berl. loofen IPA[o:] or
[ɔ:]??
[engl. to run]


Am 28.06.2008 um 19:45 schrieb R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com

Un da kriech ik jleich wieda eene Idee (und Ideen jiept et bai mia ja imma
jenuuch): in't Jeschichtsblatt von Lowlands-L wat üba die Agathe Lasch. Det
weea jut, wail sie eemt laida ßu wenich bekannt is. Wat meenste daßu,
Joachim?


janß meena Meenunk! Aba ob ik da groß wat baitraren kann, weeß ik noch nich.

Joachim, I wonder if you agree with my characterization of traditional
Berlin dialects as Missingsch. I know it's not officially known as such, but
it's undeniable that it has strong Low Saxon substrata.


Low Saxon substrata, without doubts. But one have to take into account that
there were some elements in (Middle German) Meissnian of that time, that
were equal or similar to LS elements, as shown in Lasch's Table I reported.

So it depends, what you understand under "Missingsch". A. Lasch rejects the
hypothesis of Berlinish as High German/Low Saxon mixed language, because it
is in kernel/core Meissnian, but with LS substrata saved or even reimported
(as "ik", "det") in the 18/19th century.

Juutjeen,
joachim aus Olle-Pankowe

Am 28.06.2008 um 13:55 schrieb Joachim Kreimer-de Fries:

Jawollja, keen Diphtong meer bai "ee" und "oo", det secht meen insjesamt
achßeen(18)jeerjet Anheeren von Berlin'schen Ureenwoonan (aborigines) -
zwölwe davon inna Kalta-Kriich-Frontstadt Westberlin, sexe jetze in
Ostberlin. Män da ooch dat Berlin'sche bedroot is, wee'k det nich behoopten,
wenn ik di Nacht nich met der hailjen Agathe ihra Berlin'schen Jrammatik
ßujebracht hette ...

Yes, indeed, no Diphtong left in "ee" and "oo", that says my altogether 18
year long hearing of Berlin aborigines - 12 of it in the frontcity of the
Cold War Westberlin, 6 nowadays in Eastberlin. But because also the Berlin
dialect is threatened with extinction, I wouldn't dare affirming that
without spending the night with St. Agathe's Berlin grammar ...
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