LL-L "Semantics" 2008.05.16 (01) [E]

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.05.15 (02) [E]

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Dear Lowlanders,

I find the phenomenon of semantic shift quite fascinating and feel that more
attention ought to be paid to it in etymological research.

I wonder if you agree with me about the following current shift development
in English and if you can provide more information. In particular, I am
interested to know whether or not this shift has spread from US English to
other dialects in the meantime, which would not be surprising given the
power of the US media.

It seems that the countable noun "man" (as distinct from uncountable and
article-less "man" = "mankind") is retreating.

Its use as "adult male human" seems to be retreating to scientific and other
"serious" areas, styles and registers. In casual speech, "guy" seems to be
the usual word of choice (not counting what seem to be generational fashion
words, currently "dude").

In polite speech (in which "guy" would be considered too casual), quite
typically heard in the news, is "gentleman". What fascinates me about this
use is that, while it belongs to an elevated mode of speech, this word has
lost its original connotation of "distinguished" and "well-mannered"
(originally "belonging to gentility"). Because of this, people that, like
me, remember its special use, tend to find it rather strange that
"gentleman" is now being used to refer to men that are anything but gentle
or genteel, in the news for instance referring to murderers and other sorts
of convicted criminals. I believe this is a case in which people have ceased
to etymologically analyze a word, where it has simply become a series of
sounds and letters.

On the other hand, "lady" seems to have pretty much fallen by the wayside in
the US, at least in the northern states. I get strange looks when I use it
occasionally.  Apparently, the word to use is "woman," even though this
usage would have been considered impolite in the past. So we are dealing
with asymmetry here: "woman" = yes, "man" = limited, "lady" = no,
"gentleman" = yes.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron


In Britain "man" as male human is pretty much alive and kicking - "witnesses
said they saw two men running into a side steet..."; "Police have arrested a
20 year old man and a 19 year old woman on suspicion of murder.." etc.
"Gentleman" would certainly not be used by our media in those cases.

Also generally: "Studies showed that men earned up to 20% more than women
doing the same or similar jobs..."

"Gentleman" and "lady" are more likely to be used when referring to a person
in their presence: "I think the umbrella belongs to this gentleman..." "This
lady was in the queue before me..."  And on toilet doors!

But note that mediaeval "gentlemen" - aristocrats - were certainly anything
but gentle. Trained killers for the most part.

Paul

----------

From: Brooks, Mark <mark.brooks at twc.state.tx.us>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.05.15 (06) [E]

Ron asked:  "I wonder if you agree with me about the following current shift
development in English and if you can provide more information."

Yes, I agree that the shift has already happened in the U.S.  Let me give
you my take on why.  Sort of my "folk semantic" view.  I've always reckoned
that "man" became a disparaged term, because it has taken on a connotation
of a sexist, chauvinist male.  Likewise, many women I work with use the word
"man" disparagingly when accusing a male of not getting it, when they talk
to one another.  They'll say things like, "Oh, that's just like a man to say
that," or "Only a man would ask that question."  I work in a department with
a majority of females, so they sometimes think of me as "one of the girls"
and say quite rude things about men in general.  I often jokingly remind
them that I haven't undergone a sex change operation ;-)

Now, about "woman."  I think "lady" connotes a female who "knew her place"
so to speak.  In other words, a lady would be someone who couldn't think
very clearly and belonged at home in the kitchen.  As in, "my little lady."
Notice how just recently Senator Obama has gotten in hot water for referring
to a female as "sweetie."  Woman, on the other hand, connotes someone who
can think for herself and chooses her place in society.  I have the notion
that to say "I talked to a lady on the bus…" sounds almost dismissive.
Whereas, "I talked to a woman on the bus…" sounds like she deserves
respect.

At least, that's how I see it from Austin, Texas.  Austin is a special case
though.  Austin is to Texas as California is to the U.S.  In other words,
it's a liberal island in a sea of conservativism.

Regards,

Mark Brooks
----------

From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2008.05.15 (06) [E]

Here in Bombay, when speaking English (and also when speaking
Hinglish) the common way to refer to an adult male  (either 3rd person
reference OR vocative) whose name you do not know is "uncle".

While this does not bother me MOST the time (it MAY be the one most
common way world-wide for kids to refer to males of their parents'
generation or older), when the bus conductor, himself a gentleman of
some age, addresses me as "uncle", it DOES ruffle my linguistic
feathers (and my age sensitivity!) a bit.

MWM || マイク || Мика || माईक || માઈક || ਮਾਈਕ
================
Dr Michael W Morgan
Managing Director
Ishara Foundation
Mumbai (Bombay), India
++++++++++++++++
माईकल मोर्गन (पी.एच.डी.)
मेनेजिंग डॉयरेक्टर
ईशारा फॉउंडेशन (मुंबई )
++++++++++++++++
茂流岸マイク(言語学博士)
イシャラ基金の専務理事・事務局長
ムンバイ(ボンベイ)、インド

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Thanks a lot, guys!

Paul, your examples pretty much tally with the way they would be in US
American media reports. So we need to tweak the description to show that in
more formal (public report-style) statements "man" is still used in that
way. In a less formal (though not casual) style, "gentleman" tends to be the
choice now. This includes for instance members of the public being
interviewed in the media or by the police (e.g. "I saw those two gentlemen
incessantly beating another."). The feminine equivalent seems to be "woman".

Mark, I take it Indian English "uncle" for "man" is a calque (i.e. loan
translation) from one or more local languages (where it is supposedly
polite). Or?  What's the feminine equivalent? "Aunt"? From your description
I takeit that "uncle" is also a form of address, something like "sir"
elsewhere.

I can relate to your feeling of unease about being called "uncle" especially
by people that are your seniors. This reminds me of one of my three pet
peeves in Indonesia (a country I absolutely loved otherwise). As I mentioned
before, everyone, irrespective of age, class and ethnic background, referred
to and addressed me with *oom*, Dutch for "uncle", consistently when
speaking Indonesian, sometimes also when speaking English or Dutch. (I had
studied Malay of Malaysia and had an easy time understanding and "faking"
Indonesian.) I was in my thirties then. What irked me about it was the fact
that *oom* was only used for men of Caucasian European background, was thus
a specific leftover from the Dutch colonial era several decades after it
ended. I felt most uncomfortable when older people addressed me with *oom*,
including for instance *penghulu* (village chiefs), people locally held in
highest esteem (while I was a wandering student traveling on a shoestring).
And there was nothing I could do about it despite the negative semantic
connotations in my mind. However, a Tamil Australian I met (who also spoke
Indonesian) was called all sorts of things except *oom*.

When it comes to social level, there are significant differences between
German on the one hand and authentic Low Saxon of Germany on the other hand.
*Mann* for "man" (in some contexts polite *Herr*) is predominant in Standard
German, while Low Saxon *man* (*Mann*) usually sounds overly formal. In
German, *Kerl* sounds negative, while Low Saxon *keyrl* (*Keerl* ~ *Kierl*)
is quite ordinary and neutral. In Northern German, presumably from Low Saxon
via Missingsch, *Kerl* can be used positively if it is qualified as such;
e.g. *Er ist ein lieber Kerl* 'He's a nice guy', better even with a
diminutive: *Er ist ein liebes Kerlchen*. I believe this usage has spread
south now. For "men" in general, Low Saxon tends to use *mansluyd'* (*
Mannslüüd'*), literally "men folk," where you would use *Männer* 'men' in
German (with the feminine equivalents *vrouensluyd'* ~ *vruenluyd'* ~
*vrugensluyd'
*(*Froonsl**ü**üd' **~ **Fruunsl**ü**üd' ~ **Frugensl**ü**üd'* ) in Low
Saxon and *Frauen* in German. Specific men as a group, however, tend to be
referred to as *keyrls* (*Keerl*s ~ *Kierl*s) in Low Saxon, *Männer* (polite
*Herren*) in German. Low Saxon *mans* (*Manns*) 'men' exists, as does
feminine *vrouens* ~ *vruen *~ *vrugens *(*Froons** **~ **Fruuns **~ **
Frugens*) 'women', but they seem to be used very rarely, unless they are
used to denote 'husbands' and 'wives' respectively. Younger unmarried women
are referred to as *deyrn* (*Deern* ~ *Diern*) 'girl' (plural *deyrns* (*
Deerns* ~ *Dierns*), which within the right context can also mean
'girlfriend (of a male)', in this context the feminine equivalent of
masculine *keyrl* (*Keerl* ~ *Kierl*). Thus, *er keyrl* (*ehr Keerl ~ ehr
Kierl*) 'her boyfriend' is pretty much the equivalent of England English
"her fella". If I wanted to translate Tammy Wynette's country song "Stand by
Your Man", I would also use more general *keyrl*: *Sta dyn keyrl by* (*Stah
dien Keerl bi*), as opposed to *Sta dyn man by* (*Stah dien Mann bi*) 'Stand
by Your Husband'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Mark:

I work in a department with a majority of females, so they sometimes think
of me as "one of the girls" and say quite rude things about men in general.
 I often jokingly remind them that I haven't undergone a sex change
operation ;-)

When that happens to me I usually say something like "Sure! Go ahead and
consider me one of the girls!"
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