LL-L "Etymology" 2009.04.07 (10) [E]

Tue Apr 7 22:25:50 UTC 2009

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L O W L A N D S - L - 07 April 2009 - Volume 10
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From: heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk <heatherrendall at tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.04.07 (01) [E]

from Heather Rendall  heatherendall at tiscali.co.uk

re replies to celtic origins of Lancastrian dialect(s)

Oh dear ! I suppose I ought to be able to reply in Welsh but it is now 28
years since I left Wales and I only ever managed to get to a level that
allowed me to read a child's book suitable for 8/9 yr olds. I did once
listen to a whole programme on TV thinking I had made the essential
breakthrough as I could follow it all.... only to find at the end that it
had been made in Brittany by Bretons speaking Welsh!

I wasn't claiming any definite origins ..... but Davies' book first
published in the late 19th century contains many 'dialect' words that are
recognisable as (now) mainstream English. What I find interesting is many
many of these when checked in the OED have 'origin unknown'. My contention
is that the Celtic languages have had a much greater impact on English
vocabulary than they are usually given credit for and that a sound knowledge
of Welsh and Irish would serve the OED researchers well.

examples from Davies

bicker = to quarrel peevishly  Welsh bicra/ bicre =to fight, skirmish  OED
origin unknown

codger = an artful person  Welsh coegiwr = a deceiver, cheat   OED perhaps
variant of cadger: OED cadger - origin unknown

gammy = crooked, lame  Welsh  cam = crooked  OED dialect variant of game
OED game of unknown origin perhaps F gambi = bent , crooked

muffin = a kind of light tea cake/ sort of crumpet   Welsh mef = soft,
smooth, puffed mwythan = any soft tender substance  OED of unknown origin

mug = low word for the face (ugly mug)  Irish muig / mugi  = a surly
countenance

Gaelic (s)muig a snout, a ludicrous name for a face   Sanskrit  mukha =
mouth or face  OED perhaps transfer from a drinking mug being frequently
made to representa grotesque face (!)

......... and I could quote many more

The influence or remnants of Celtic British on Anglo-Saxon is usually
restricted to geographic elements " It left only a few traces in English"
Melvyn Bragg  in "The Adventures of English"

"Why then are there so few Celtic loan words in Old English?... apart from
the placenames referrred to on p25, the influence is indeed small"  David
Crystal in "The Stories of English" and then mentions the following

bannock: brock: crag: wan: dun: carr: loch: clucge = bell > glocke / clock

and says that perhaps there are another 20 only!

But Davies lists pages of what he termed dialect words of 1890 - many of
which have become modern parlance since he wrote his book.

I just think it may be worthwhile considering that in some cases he may be
right - that the origins were either from the Irish or Welsh.

What is debatable is at what period they entered the language; are they
remnants that have always been there? Did they come in post 1066? Did they
come in during Tudor expansion? Or the industrial revolution? Or even later?

Heather

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From: Marcel Bas <marcelbas at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2009.04.07 (06) [A/E]

Dag Petrus!

Dank je voor je vraag.

Het soort r-metathesen dat jij oppert komt inderdaad veel voor in de
Germaanse talen (vgl. 'breed' vs. 'bird' in het Engels), maar een
s-mobile waarbij _surt_ ook _srut_ en _rut_ kon worden is
onwaarschijnlijk. Sr- zou onherroepelijk een epenthese tot str- tot
gevolg hebben gehad, en zou enkel zo in de Germaanse talen zijn
binnengekomen.

Maar verder zie je dat ook semantisch gezien de eenheid tussen
zwart-surt(r)-sordidus aannemelijker is, zoals ook Ron zegt.

Bij mijn weten is het Engelse 'to read' inderdaad in het licht van het
lezen van de runentekens te zien, maar is het niet verwant aan 'rood',
maar juist aan 'raden'. Je zou ervan kunnen uitgaan dat de
geestelijken over ingewijde kennis beschikten (alleen zij lazen) die
op de eenvoudigere mensen een raadselachtige indruk maakte.

Al deze woordveranderingen zijn overigens eenvoudig terug te voeren op
vrijwel uitzonderingsloze klankwetten. Zie maar, als je een goed
etymologisch woordenboek ter hand neemt.

Groetjes,

Marcel.

•

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