LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.03 (01) [E]

Tue Feb 3 15:40:09 UTC 2009

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (05) [E]

> From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Syntax"

[...]

> Referring to a Norwegian genitive construction you wrote:
>

[...]

>
> The same construction is not only very common in

> Brabantish,  [...]

Hi,

I would say, it is rather common in dutch, although you would hardly find it
in written dutch, and neither in elevated spoken dutch.
In grammar school in Amsterdam I was told that this construction was no
dutch.
[And as the only lower class boy in school there were a lot more
constructions they make me change; even 'tram' I had now to pronounce as an
english word. Funny people, those higher class people.]

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

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From: clarkedavid8 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E

 From: LUCAS ANNEAR <annear at wisc.edu>
Subject: Idiomatica

Dear Lowlanders,

I have a question regarding a genitive construction.  In Norwegian it's
gradually becoming more acceptable to write constructions like:

- Per sin bil ligger der borte. 'Per his car lies over there.' 'Per's car is
over there.'

The construction you refer to is found in 17th century written English:
"Samuel Pepys his diary". I dont know where it came from, when it started or
why it disappeared from English. Perhaps a Netherlandish influence from
Dutch/Flemish dyke-builders and court painters? I thought it was a feature
of standard Dutch.

David Clarke

----------

From: Henno Brandsma <hennobrandsma at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E]

From: LUCAS ANNEAR <annear at wisc.edu>
Subject: Idiomatica

Dear Lowlanders,

I have a question regarding a genitive construction.  In Norwegian it's
gradually becoming more acceptable to write constructions like:

- Per sin bil ligger der borte. 'Per his car lies over there.' 'Per's car is
over there.'

or

-Bilen min traff Kari sin bil. 'My car hit Kari his car.'  'My car hit Kar's
car.'

especially when it is part of the subject of the sentence, and so I hear.

I know that this construction exists in Frisian.  Unfortunately I can't
construct my own sentences (just trying to read is difficult enough!), so
I'll have to borrow one that I found on the web as an example. (found here:
http://netherlands.poetryinternationalweb.org/piw_cms/cms/cms_module/index.php?obj_id=4588
)

-Wylst it roet reinde ÃƒÂºt de himel syn skimerwolken.  Meaning: "While the
soot rained out the heaven (sky) his dusky clouds" in an, I think, literal
translation.

Indeed. Not the easiest poet, Hettinga. I especially like his own readings
of his work (which I have on CD).

There are 3 possible ways of forming a possesive like that in Frisian
(Westerlauwer):

1) Memme fyts (mother's bicycle) [the oldest one, in this case a weak noun,
like "heite" from "heit" = father, with my name it would be a more common
-s: Henno's fyts)

2) De fyts fan mem [ almost universally possible in West-Germanic ]

3) Mem har fyts [ probably the most common one nowadays, with men and things
it is "syn": Henno syn fyts e.g. ]

  To what extent is found in the other Lowlands (and Germanic) languages,
and is there an origin that is generally agreed upon?  I don't think that
I've seen it in Dutch, though I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's found.

It's extremely common in colloquial Dutch, but almost never written, except
when wanting to really write "folksy". Note the weak form "[z at n]" with
schwa, not the strong "[zE.in]", is used, a sort of clitic form. So writing
z'n [as is often done in non-formal contexts] is more appropriate.

I would think it is the most common form in most dialects as well. Female
form "haar" has the clitic for "d'r" [d at r] in pronounciation: "moeder d'r
fiets", never the strong form, which sounds very unnatural to me in this
context.

I would most tend to use this for living persons and animals, but other uses
are also common: de auto z'n stuur etc, although "het stuur van de auto" is
more common still and certainly the only written form.

There might be a relation to the fact that the so-called head of a noun
phrase tends to be on the right in West Germanic, and the "van" phrase
leaves it on the left, which is atypical.

Regards,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2009.02.02 (03) [E]

FWIW, it is found in some early modern English dialects.  Unfortunately that
isn't one of my strong areas, so I can't say exactly which ones - though I
remember seeing it in a number of Elizabethan-era poems by Spencer et alii,
but FWIW, I have used it in a mock-serious way in English:

"Paddington Bear his Autobiography"

I suspect Ron would know much more about this in English than I do.

Ron, in your court again! ;)

Wesley Parish

On Tuesday 03 February 2009 10:54, Lowlands-L List wrote:
<snip>

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Syntax

Hey, Wes, and thanks â€¦ I think!

I'm afraid I'm having to defer to others. I seem to know as much about it as
you do and have long been wondering if it has really disappeared from all
British dialects.

I'm with David in wondering if it is due to Netherlandic influence,
considering that this was the Dutch-speaking world her grand time, many
Dutch speakers lived in Britain and British people visited across the
Channel and learned Dutch â€¦ considering also that I have never come across
this construction in Middle English.

Of course, it could simply be that this construction had been used in some
spoken English dialects for some time and that it only began making sporadic
appearances in writing during the transitional (Early Modern) time when
English literature boomed and began showing more diversity. And even then it
could be due to Dutch-speaking influence in earlier time, when "Flemish"
immigrants flocked to Britain *en masse*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

•

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