LL-L "Idiomatica" 2009.01.04 (04) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 04 January 2009 - Volume 04
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From: *Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>*
Subject: Idiomatica

Beste Marlou,

You wrote:

Luc: you said:
But I'm anticipating a little...given the approximately 2 000 M people on
this world who are speaking either English or German as a first or second
language (who both use "next" / "nächste" in this case), my "noste" (=
naaste, superlative of na(ar) - nader - naast) won't be entirely out of tune
by the time Dutch gets its ass whooped.
Mark:
Well, in the same place we Afrikaners also say 'volgende', & logic argues
for retention. Nowww, which is nearest - to the present year: The year past
or the year to come? Now you may argue context gives that information, which
is true, but you need it.
I beg your pardon, this is Tüdelkram. The noste, naaste, next, nächste etc.
year is always the year to follow. The year past is out of reach by the laws
of physics, unless you are able to surpass the speed of light. If I say
today: "Next year I will do this", I mean 2010. Basta. Even though 2010 is
al long way and 2008 is only just gone.

Much more amusing is the northern german custom of saying "This tuesday we
will have a meeting" in contrast to "Next tuesday we will have a meeting."
(I think this has been discussed already here, hasn't it?) Now what is
"this" tuesday? It is in fact the next tuesday to come. The nearest tuesday.
In Hamburg at least it is so. The people of this extraordinary town are some
time ahead of time, quite without the help of relativity and speed greater
than that of light. "Next tuesday" is the tuesday after. I have seen people
miss meetings on these grounds. A Hamburg man said "Next tuesday", an
Austrian man came -- this tuesday! It would have been clearer simply to say
"We will have a meeting on tuesday." (This would mean *this* tuesday, of
course.)

The height of confusion would be to say "this tuesday" on a tuesday in
Hamburg! :-))

Indeed, "next" only applies to the future, because for daily use, time is
unidirectional. However, I think I understand why Hamburgers are doing this.
When you're "inside" a certain time span (week/month/year), everybody will
refer to it with "this"/"Diese" (week/month/year), in order to distinguish
it from the following/nächste (week/month/year). So logically speaking, you
could also say "this" Tuesday, but only if you're saying it during that very
Tuesday (in opposition to coming Tuesdays in the future). Calling it like
that in advance breaks the logic.

On the other hand, many people will also say "this summer", if today they're
talking about the summer of 2009, even though summer is not yet
around...soooooo *mmm*. Guess you can say it, if it's expressed during the
year 2009. Which would mean that "this summer", when being said on
31/12/2008 would be the summer of 2008, but on 1/1/2009 it would refer to
the summer of 2009. So, on a weekly basis, "this Tuesday" could make sense
if we first agree when the week starts, some choose Sunday, some Monday. In
order to avoid confusion, maybe just better stick to a universal "next" for
whatever comes up first *s*.

In Brabantish, when being "inside" a certain time frame, we usually say
"van", like: "van-daag", "van de wèèk", "van de mojnd", "van de zomer", "van
't jaar"...= "today", "this week", "this month", summer 2009, "this year".
The opposite of "naaste" (next, nächste) is "passeede", clearly a loanword
of French: "passeede wèèk", "passeede mojnd".

It all depends on how you look at time. I was once told that by default the
old Greek were looking to the past, and the future was always hitting them
in the back. They viewed themselves as if they were walking forward, but
with their back forward, constantly looking in some sort of rearview mirror.

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica"

Beste Diederik & Marlou,



Diederik wrote:



> I never heard people say "drie een half" in any Dutch dialect for half
past three...



Really??? I think roughly one out of three Dutch speaking Belgians will say
"drie-en-half" instead of "halfvier". The isoglosse is very sharp by the
way: Merchtem (and everything more to the South) will say "drie-en-half",
but everything more to the North (Steenhuffel for example) won't.



Marlou wrote:



>what do your people say when it is 15:15 h?



"Kwart na drie" = "kottier na d'n draan" (B) and 15:45 = "kwart voor vier" =
"kottier vöö de viern" (B). Half the hour marks the limit where looking back
will switch to looking forward.



Kind greetings,



Luc Hellinckx



PS: No doubt that the perception of time plays a very important role in
culture (look at my other message ~ the Greek & fate, the Indians and number
0...). Describing a location is just as important however (look at how Turks
deal with prepositions)...
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