LL-L "Terminology" 2009.05.12 (03) [EN]

[Lowlands-L List]

===========================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 12 May 2009 - Volume 03
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===========================================

From: Wolfram Antepohl <wolfram at antepohl.se>
Subject: LL-L "Terminology" 2009.05.11 (06) [EN]

A personal reflection: Apart from the concepts of "minority" and "having
been there first" i usually think of (at least a period of) "supression" and
"colonization" when thinking of indigenous people. In other words, there are
several dimensions all of which (including "having been there first") may be
interpreted subjectively. Concerning the Sami, most historians would agree
that there was a period of colonization and supression. Ron, your Siberian
example illustrates that you don't hav to cross an ocean to colonize a
country, a continent or a nation. Interestingly, there has been quite some
debate concerning who actually was there (in the North of Europe) first.
Probably, the Sami arrived slightly (but not dramatically) earlier than the
Germanic tribes. But probably there were others there even earlier who then
assimilated with the newcomers. To me, being indigenous is definitely not
black and white, it's more like scales in those four dimensions. Let's take
the (Low) Saxons of Germany and the Netherlands: Colonization and
Supression? Yes - by Charlemagne some 1200 years ago. Maybe there was (is?)
cultural supression even later. On the other hand, several emperors of the
Holy Roman Epire were Saxons, the Hansa was Saxon, Saxons colonized their
Slavic neighbours in the East. And: People of Saxon descent are still a
majority in Northern Germany - even if they have abandonned their original
language. From my point of view, we only qualify for a very low grade of
inidgenousness ... You might do such an analysis for all the peoples you
mentioned, Ron, and of course for many more and will probably end up with
different grades of indigenousness. At the end of the day, however, the
subjective component might still be the one that counts most.

Greetings

Wolfram

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Terminology

Thanks for sharing your views, Wolfram, which aren't much different from
mine.

You wrote:

On the other hand, several emperors of the Holy Roman Epire were Saxons, the
Hansa was Saxon, Saxons colonized their Slavic neighbours in the East.

True, but this in itself does not fundamentally change anything.
Collaboration is a common result in colonization and suppression. Africans
participated in African slave trade. Europeans engaged Native Americans to
beat down other Native Americans. Among Slavic people, having been declared
"racially" inferior to Germanic people, there were thise that cooperated
with the Nazis, many even voluntarily. Scottish and Welsh people served on
the side of the English and as such sometimes worked against the national
interest of their own people. Some South Asians occupied high offices in the
British Raj or as law enforcement officers often beat down their own
"rebellious" people. This sort of thing happens more easily where
superficially there isn't much difference between groups and prestige and
other types of incentives for integration seem irresistible.

In my opinion, the Hanseatic League was an opportunity for a Saxon comeback
not too long after forced baptism and integration, a sort of semi-liberty in
the form of economic power and what amounts to colonialism along the North
European shores. I also wonder if the relative ease with which the
Reformation was introduced to the north had not also a little bit to do with
an opportunity for Saxon reassertion. These are "feelings" of mine
surrounded by question marks. I mention some of it in the intro to my
budding grammar, and I would welcome any input.

http://lowlands-l.net/grammar-new/saxons.php

Thanks again, Wolram!

Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

•

==============================END===================================

 * Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.

 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.

 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.

 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l")

   are to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at

   http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.

*********************************************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20090512/0b56e4f1/attachment.htm>