LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (05) [EN]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 27 May 2009 - Volume 05
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]

The expression "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is not uncommon here, but
it's accepted as an Americanism.

Paul
Derby
England

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
 Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (02) [EN]

Heather wrote:

> But Simple Pasts cannot be used like this: so you can't say
> ... the half-ate hamburger
Well, actually, depends on who "you" is I guess. If you type "half ate
sandwich", for example, into google search, you will come up with more than
a few examples of people using it ... unconsciously and unconsientiously...

And, I would guess, if one could sing about a "driunken sailor" 100 years
ago (or whenever), you can imagine that SOME of his great-grandchildrwen are
probably talking about him still to this day.

As a user and lover of grammars, too many are the times I have read one day
"you can't say X" or  "*X", only to read/hear/see a native speaker/signer
use exactly that expression somewhere within the next week ...

When I get in the room as a language TEACHER, i don't know if that makes me
a better teacher or a worse one, but it DOES make me a popular one, 'cause I
almost NEVER tell the students, "Nope, you are WRONG" ... but, when i cock
my head in the certain way, and look pensive for a moment,  and say/sign
"You know, *I* wouldn't say it that way but maybe ...' ... well the students
get the message anyway.

mike || U C > || мика  || माईक || マイク || ሚካኤል
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++
          (( Michael W Morgan, PhD ))
    to be Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Ethiopian Sign Language & Deaf Studies Program
      Addis Ababa University (Ethiopia)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
וואָס ×œ×¢× ×’×¢×¨ אַ ×‘×œ×™× ×“×¢×¨ לעבט, אַלץ מער זעט ער.
The longer a blind man lives, the more he sees.

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From: Mike Morgan <mwmosaka at gmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (02) [EN]

In Heather's (partial) defense, if you stick with HER "hamburger" rather
than MY "sandwich", there was only ONE "half ate hamburger" that came up in
response to a google search ... (sandwich came up with 80-odd, though
granted soem MIGHt be repeats)

...

And from the Telegraph (Kolkota / Calcutta) 17 January 2009 we have THIS
(boldface added):

Banta came home *drunken* and asked his son, Ghanta, about his examinations.

Ghanta: “Papa, I’ll have to stay in this class for one more year.”

Banta: “*Koi baat nahin, saal lagey ya teen saal, magar fail mat hona (*You
may spend two years or three in this class, but don’t fail).
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From: jmtait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2009.05.27 (01) [EN]

Ron wrote:

So it seems to me that the "extended" forms (with -en) at least *used to* be
used only to precede and thus modify nouns.

And ...

*The floor in the middle of the room is *sunk*. (?)
The floor in the middle of the room is *sunken*.
The floor in the middle of the room has *sunk*.  (verb)
*The floor in the middle of the room has *sunken*. (verb) (?)
*The room has a *sunk* floor.
The room has a *sunken* floor.

Any comments?


Are you saying that the -en forms originated as adjectives? Or that they are
older forms of the past participle which have nevertheless retained their
use as adjectives, even though they have fallen out of use as past
participles?

So that we have various stages in this process:

In broke/broken we have a past participle (broken) which is used both as
past participle and adjective in the standard language, though it may have
fallen out of use in some dialects.

In sunk/sunken, we have a past participle (sunken) which is no longer used
as a past participle, but survives as an adjective.

In drunk/drunken, we have a past participle (drunken) which is no longer
used either as past participle or adjective, and thus only survives in older
songs, etc.

In Shetland, both 'sunken' and 'drunken' are still used (at least by
linguistic dinosaurs such as myself) in their original senses, as past
participles. I would say 'Da floor i da middle o da room is sunken [sVkN]
doon' and 'He's drucken [drVkN] ower muckle.'  (In both those cases, the
auxiliary verb used to form the perfect is 'be' rather than 'have'). Also as
an adjective: 'He's a drucken fuil' and 'he's braaly drucken.' In these
cases, 'drucken' doesn't mean 'drunk' exactly, it means 'Given to becoming
drunk.' Somebody could be described as 'drucken' even if they were sober at
the time. 'Drunk' would still be used with the standard English sense
(although this may be a recent expression from the standard language. The
native Shetland is more likely to be 'foo' as in 'foo o drink.)

In these cases, the 'It's broke' type of construction would come from
dialects less conservative in this area (cp: 'whodunnit', 'I seen it', etc)
whereas the Shetland example illustrates a dialect more conservative than
standard English.

The difference between some past participles of weak verbs and adjectives in
Shetland may be related to this, although I'm not sure exactly how. In
Shetland, as in Scots, past participles in '-it' occur only after
'p,t,k,b,d,g' sounds. But you still get adjectives such as 'waenglit'
meaning wobbly, where the verb is 'waengle, pt. waengled, pptc. waengled',
and 'slesterit' (messy), where the verb is 'slester, pt. slestered, pptc.
slestered. I suspect there is some analogy to this in the Scots adjective
form 'fremmit' (foreign) which is 'fremd' in Shetland and elsewhere.

John M. Tait.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
 Subject: Grammar

Thanks for the clarification, John.

Are you saying that the -en forms originated as adjectives? Or that they are
older forms of the past participle which have nevertheless retained their
use as adjectives, even though they have fallen out of use as past
participles?

I was timidly trying to imply the latter.

In these cases, 'drucken' doesn't mean 'drunk' exactly, it means 'Given to
becoming drunk.' Somebody could be described as 'drucken' even if they were
sober at the time. 'Drunk' would still be used with the standard English
sense (although this may be a recent expression from the standard language.
The native Shetland is more likely to be 'foo' as in 'foo o drink.)

I suppose that's the equivalent of saying that someone "is a drunk" in
American English. It refers to someone given to drinking, an alcoholic thus.

I suspect there is some analogy to this in the Scots adjective form
'fremmit' (foreign) which is 'fremd' in Shetland and elsewhere.

It's (*fremidi* > *frem(e)de* >) *fremd* in German, *vreemd* in Dutch, and (
*fremithi* > *vremede* ~ *vromede* >) *frömd* in Low Saxon. The Scots forms
must be derived from Old English *fremþe* or from its specific Old
Northumbrian equivalent, if different. They come from *fram* 'forward',
'away' which comes from Indo-European **promo*.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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