LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.04 (01) [EN]

Wed Nov 4 17:51:34 UTC 2009

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L O W L A N D S - L - 04 November 2009 - Volume 01
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From: DAVID COWLEY <DavidCowley at anglesey.gov.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.03 (03) [EN]

Thanks Luc - Yes, there is a point about length of words coming into play,
but I think that the meaningfulness of words also has to count too. So,
whilst 'Exit' is shorter than 'Outgang', or indeed 'Way Out', both the
latter have the root idea OUT, whilst Exit uses Latin/ Greek for out, EX. We
also find Exit being used as a verb in computer-speak: 'are you sure you
want to exit the application?' - what's wrong with 'leave' I wonder?

There are many examples where less meaningful words are used in technical or
other contexts, and there seems to be an idea that this somehow sounds
cleverer than using the basic English. Some of the worst can be seen in
hospitals: 'Cardio-' this and that, instead of 'heart', renal for kidney;
why say 'bone' when you can sound really clever by saying osteo- something
... lets not can it a Childrens' Ward or whatever, rather 'paedeatric' (so
unfriendly-sounding). Lots of this kind of stuff isn't understood by less
educated folk, young or older. Is this to overawe the patients? Show them
that its all above their heads?

The same kind of thing can be seen in many other walks of life. I despair of
it, partly because it can also be used as a smokescreen for what might
actually be poor products, or to avoid sounding 'bad': how about 'co-lateral
damage'? It seems that English is at a stage where it actively grows this
kind of stuff - to make one's mark somewhere, or sell a product, one 'has'
to come up with something that sounds new and clever, whether it really is
or not.
So that's some of the thinking behind why we would do well to think about
going back to being more basic and using the older words, where these say
what we mean.
David

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

David,

Isn't it simply that Latinate (Latin, French and Norman) words are perceived
as more "educated," "serious" or "sophisticated" and are therefore often
used and played with to make things sound "classy," "scientific," "legal"
and overall "legitimate"? Most Germanic-rooted words, in contrast, sound
"simple" and "mundane" to most English speakers. This would explain much of
what you and I consider gratuitous use of Romance-derived words.

We mustn't forget that Latinate words tend to be real obstacles to English
speakers with rudimentary formal education. It has happened to me once or
twice that in honest conversations such people told me things like "I don't
even understand many of the words you say" or "Whatever you were saying
right now," and they were referring to Latinate words that you and I would
consider basic. Germanic-rooted English words, on the other hand, sound less
"intimidating" and the meaning of many of them is etymologically more
transparent to the average person.

I wonder if it can be stated that this has its roots in a social class
system in which formally educated people or those that wanted to appear thus
endeavored to keep out the "riff-ruff." There is a similar tradition in
German academic writing styles that involves ample gratuitous use of
loanwords and unnecessarily long and convoluted syntactic constructions.

Just look at the three previous paragraphs and all the Latinate words I used
in it! As an exercise, let me try this with fewer of them (the highlighted
ones being Latinate words that I believe are understood and used by most
English speakers with basic education):

 Isn't it just that words that came from Latin, French and Norman are
thought of as more "learned," "serious" or "high-level" and are therefore
often used and played with to make things sound "classy," "scientific," "
legal" and overall "better"? Compared with them, most Germanic-rooted words
sound "simple" and "everyday" to most English speakers. This would make
clear much of what you and I think of as needless use of such words (that
are known as "Latinate").

We mustn't forget that Latinate words are often real hurdles to English
speakers who have basic school education. It has happened to me once or
twice that in honest talks such people told me things like "I don't even
understand many of the words you say" or "Whatever you were saying right
now," and they meant Latinate words that you and I see as basic.
Germanic-rooted English words, on the other hand, sound less "off-putting"
and to the typical person the meaning of many of them is clearer because it
is easier to see what those words are made up of.

I wonder if it can be said that this has its roots in a social class
systemin which
people with a lot of school learning, or those that wanted to seem like
that, tried to keep out the "riff-ruff." A similar thing has been going on
among German speakers that have been to universities: many of them
needlessly use a lot of foreign-rooted words and also long sentences full of
twists and turns.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA

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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.03 (03) [EN]

"Exit" is only shorter than "way out" or indeed "outgang", if you can read
and write, which most people couldn't. It takes just as long to say.
"Intercommunication" has one more syllable than "talking to each other", and
"veracity" takes three times as long to say as "truth".  Many borrowings,
especially Latin ones were made precisely because they were harder or less
accessible than the Germanic basics. "Inkhorn Language" one writer (Pepys?)
called it derisively.

Paul
Derby
England

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>
 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2009.11.03 (01) [EN]

The "status" issue with English and French became very complicated up to and
including the 14thC. The Norman invaders spoke their distinct form, but the
Angevins and Plantagenets who ruled from the end of the 12thC spoke a more
"standard" French, and by the late 13thC there was a distinct sense of
separateness in Anglo-Normans who often resented French favourites.  By
Chaucer's time, the Norman variety was clearly seen as a rather parochial,
unfashionable form. His nun:
"spoke the Freynch of Stratteford at Bowe:
The Freynch of Parys was to hir unknowe"

The big turn-around came in the 14thC; Edward I at the beginning of the
century spoke virtually no English, other than some swear-words (His
opposite number, Robert Bruce would likewise have known little
English/Scots, though his French was probably much more Norman than
Edward's).  Edwards great-grandsons at the end of the century, Richard II
and Henry IV routinely spoke English as their day-to-day language, and the
next generation, Henry V of Agincourt fame, spoke French so poorly he needed
an interpreter to speak to his betrothed, the French crown princess.

This remarkable switch of status has often been linked to the so-called
"Black Death" (though nobody called it that then) after which the lower
(English speaking) classes acquired more economic clout, labour being in
such short supply. Equally important though was the rise of the merchant
class, especially wool traders.  It was they who started to spread a
widely-understood East Midlands dialect that would ultimately lead to
Standard English; that was essentially Chaucer's written language and he had
close connections with the court.  The merchants were frequently fluent in
Flemish as well which undoubtedly encouraged the trade-related borrowings,
e.g. "freight".

"The Triumph of English" by Basil Cottle is an old but good book about this
change-over period.

Incidentally Norman French remained the official legal language in England
until Cromwell changed it to English, even though almost nobody could speak
it by then.  After the Restoration it was briefly re-instated, before
everyone agreed it was probably a good idea to conduct court proceedings in
a language everyone actually understood!

Paul
Derby
England

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