LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.06 (01) [DE-EN]

Tue Apr 6 15:09:15 UTC 2010

===============================================
*L O W L A N D S - L - 06 April 2010 - Volume 01*
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
===============================================

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (05) [EN]

I've got modern books on German that use Werfall etc, alongside the
Nominative, Accusative and such.

I agree with your friend, it does explain what the cases are doing rather
better than the Latin words.  I didn't even know it was a Nazi thing.

Paul

Derby

England

----------

From: DAVID COWLEY <DavidCowley at anglesey.gov.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (05) [EN]

Very interesting Marlou.

I understand your friend found the alternative grammar terms helpful
for understanding; this is surely a strong argument for using some of
them. Not Nazi ideology of course, but if non-Latin terms are clearer,
it seems very sad to think they have been tainted just because the Nazis
used and promoted them. Motorways, rockets and jet engines were all
things promoted by the Nazis, but it would of course be outrageous to
suggest that they're bad because of that (they do of course cause
climate change).

My efforts to promote use of a less Latinised English and the updating
and use of some words from Old English sometimes bring comments like
'the Nazis tried that kind of thing' and it really hurts to think that
maybe there is some kind of point there: Potentially, a group of fanatic
racists could use this kind of idea with any of the world's  languages.
But if promoted for use by all, the idea can bring some positive
benefits for understanding. And, unlike motorways, rockets and jets, not
help cause climate change!

Best wishes
David

----------

From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (07) [EN]

From: Hellinckx Luc
<luc.hellinckx at gmail.com<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=luc.hellinckx@gmail.com>
>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

I thought many Belgians could behave pretty silly regarding language
matters...but apparently Québec has beat us. Advertising is legally strictly
regulated, the French font should be twice as "big" as the English subfont.
They even have some sort of language police, who is patrolling the streets
with a ruler, measuring characters. Go figure! There's loads of complaints,
thriving business for lawyers.

In Wales, the supermarket chain Tesco has all signs in both English and
Welsh, with the Welsh in bigger letters.  No legal requirement as far as I
know; just considered good sales policy (Welsh-speakers feel good about it,
English-speakers couldn't care less).

Paul

Derby

England

----------

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (07) [EN]

Hi all,

I can only fully agree to Marcus's observations concerning the fate of the
"Sonnabend" and how this development was triggered by the media,
particularly the television. German TV has, in my opinion and experience,
promoted linguistic conformity to a much greater extend than for instance
the BBC has, although dialects are rarely displayed, regional accents are a
regular features in many films and series on the BBC. Most of all I remember
the children series "Byker Grove" from Newcastle where local children were
employed with original Geordie accents using words such as "lass" instead of
"girl" etc., something unthinkable in Germany. Living in the Netherlands and
married to a Dutch woman raised in New Zealand our little son, now three
weeks old, will, fortunately, escape this media pressure although some kind
of media pressure promoting ABN-Dutch exist in the Netherlands as well. I am
speaking to him in the Holsten variation of Low Saxon and my wife Dutch, our
language at home is Dutch so he is not going to learn any standard German
from us and I assume that his first language is probably going to be Dutch.
I am already wondering how long it will take him to notice that I actually
speak Low Saxon to him....

However, about two months ago we went for a short day-trip over the border
to Monschau, just south of Aken/Aachen and there was a young German family
sitting behind us in the little cafe we had some tea, I was listening to the
way the parents communicated with their children and after that I was more
than glad that my child is not exposed to German media, the language they
spoke was much more adapted from the tabloid Bild-Zeitung than anything
else, sounding artificial and fake, a far cry from the language of Hermann
Hesse, Heinrich Boell or Thomas Mann. Any regional accent or dialect would
be more honest and "cultivated" than this. But fact is, that this kind of
Bild-Zeitung language is now common-place and parents believe that this is
fashionable and the way forward for their childrens' future life. I am
already wondering what will happen once I am sitting in a train to
Sleswick-Holsten speaking Low Saxon to my son and singing Low Saxon or
Frisian songs to him, I hope somebody will try to tell me off for teaching
"bad language" to my child, my answer will be ready and will be definite....

Groeten,
Helge

----------

From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (07) [EN]

From: Hellinckx Luc <luc.hellinckx at gmail.com>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics"

Beste Marcus,

You wrote:

And every country in the world has some laws that stop you from yelling
"asshole" to a cop.

Unless it can be proved it's true?

I have no sources for my claim, but I still hold it up. I would be very
surprised if it was legal anywhere.

 But not to any other citizen?

I don't know. I wouldn't make that claim.

 Wonder how a Québec cop would take this? If you don't say it in French, it
may again become acceptable, 'cause it comes from a minority language anyway
;=)

What I said did not refer only to the specific English term "asshole" but
was meant to refer to generally "insulting state agents" (in whatever
language may be able to transport insult in the respective context).

 But I don't know of any law ever where there was a list of words whose use
is unlawful independant from context.

Yesterday evening on national TV a report about the language situation in
Québec.

I thought many Belgians could behave pretty silly regarding language
matters...but apparently Québec has beat us. Advertising is legally strictly
regulated, the French font should be twice as "big" as the English subfont.
They even have some sort of language police, who is patrolling the streets
with a ruler, measuring characters. Go figure! There's loads of complaints,
thriving business for lawyers.

Some shop owner was selling "stained glass", "vitraux" in French. He was
complaining that because the English translation was roughly twice as long
as the French version, he would have to scale down the translation so much
that it became barely readable. I don't know if "twice the size" applies to
the length of the word or the area it occupies, whether bold font counts
double or if there are any exceptions for words that are much longer in the
other language...but clearly, this is becoming pathetic! Sadly, the
"Sprachpolizei" was telling the reporter that they were trying to learn from
the Belgian situation...sic. Mind you, all of the English speakers thought
that French in Québec did deserve some sort of extra protection...but not
along these lines and to this extent.

This may not yet be a case of outright "banning", but it does boil down to
systematic discrimination. Like Sandy remarked earlier on, in a subcultural
or tabloid context, such a policy can indeed trigger the opposite effect,
but in a very competitive, economic environment I have my doubts.

It is systematic discrimination, but it is also a counter-measure against
systematic discrimination. Quebec is surrounded by English-speaking regions.
If there is no positive discrimination for French, French will slowly go the
way that so many languages went. Even when we omit the native languages
Canada was once a country with three languages. Canadian Gaelic is now
almost dead. Native languages are almost dead. Darwinistic competition in an
unregulated free market of languages leads to language death. Therefore this
sort of discrimination is okay to me. If the language does well without it,
it's even better.

Marcus Buck

----------

From: Hannelore Hinz <HanneHinz at t-online.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2010.04.05 (07) [EN]

Hallo Freunde,

ich möchte eure Ausführungen ergänzen bzw. hinzufügen.

In der Volksschule 1. - 4. Klasse keine lateinischen Bezeichnungen in der
Grammatik.

Bei Grundrechnungsarten  keine Bezeichnungen wie  Zusammenzählen (Addieren,
die Addition); [ 3 u. 2: die Summanden *m,* + : das Pluszeichen,  = das
Gleichheitszeichen, 5: die Summe (das Ergebnis, Resultat)] oder  das
Malnehmen, Multiplikand, Multiplikator, Produkt usw..

Könnt ihr euch noch an "Heini und Leni", eine Fibel für die ABC-Schützen vor
1933

(Hoch- und Niederdeutsch) erinnern?

Ab fünftes Schuljahr konnte man folgende Schulen besuchen (es war nicht
immer die Leistung entscheidend): Mittelschule, Lyzeum, Gymnasium. An diesen
Schulen dann die nun gegenwärtigen Bezeichnungen.

Ich wollte nicht die Mittelschule besuchen, weil die Mädchen dort so
eingebildet waren. Ich setzte meinen Wunsch durch.

In der Volksschule merkten wir Kinder nicht viel von jener "braunen" Zeit.
Ältere erfahrene Lehrer/innen unterrichteten uns. Erst in den späteren
Jahren 7. bzw. 8. Klasse spürten wir den Druck. Die Klassenlehrerin der 8.
Klasse war eine schlimme "Nazisse", sie war ein Wolf im Schafsfell.

Näheres ist hier zu erfahren:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaube_und_Schönheit<http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaube_und_Sch%C3%B6nheit>

Hartlich.

Hanne

===================================================
Send posting submissions to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to
listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands.list at gmail.com
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
===================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20100406/0a0165e5/attachment.htm>