LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.12.13 (01) [EN-NDS]

[Lowlands-L List]

=====================================================
L O W L A N D S - L - 13 December 2010 - Volume 01
lowlands.list at gmail.com - http://lowlands-l.net/
Posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-08)
Language Codes: lowlands-l.net/codes.php
=====================================================



From: Marcus Buck <list at marcusbuck.org>

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.12.12 (01) [EN-NDS]



From: M.-L. Lessing <marless at gmx.de>

Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.12.11 (03) [EN]



Dear Marcus, I seem not to understand the map. Where must I enter a word to
see its distribution like you did with "up"? Wenn ik dat rechterhand baven
ingeven do, kaam ik na't Wöörbook. Ik finn dat Ganze ok so basig, avers ik
wöör dat geern verstahn. Ok wenn ik op de Indrääg bi "Dialekt utsöken"
rechts baven klick, passeert nix. Mutt da wat passeern? Ik heff dat in
stückerwat Browsers probeert.


Perhaps I should give some info on how the site works: I do not save entries
in their written form. I rather save them in a special notation that
represents the word's pronunciation in ~700 AD. 700 AD is the time when the
Low Saxon dialects started to drift apart. From the word's form in 700 AD we
can logically derive its modern form. The word for English "sow" was "sugi"
in 700 AD. This word underwent three sound shifts over times: first "u"
became "o" and the word changed to "sogi", then the "i" in the end triggered
Umlaut and became "e" itself resulting in "söge", the word then was affected
by apocope and the final "e" was dropped. The word is "Söög" nowadays in my
dialect of Low Saxon. In e.g. Plautdietsch the word underwent two more sound
shifts. The now final "g" changed to "j" resulting in "Sööj" and the "ö"
sound was lowered to "ä" resulting in the modern Plautdietsch word "Sääj".
Almost any modern Low Saxon word can be logically deduced from its form in
700 AD.

And that's what "select dialect" is for. If you click on "West-Veluws" the
software will apply to the word all the sound shifts that occured in the
West-Veluws dialect. Afterwards it will render the word in Dutch-based
orthography (but I just need to flip a lever and the software could also
render West-Veluws in Sass orthography). If you click on "Noord-Barnimsch"
the software will apply all the sound shifts that occurred in the Northern
Barnim dialect and will apply German-based orthography (and again I just
need to flip lever to be able to render Barnim words in Dutch-based
orthography). I can render any word in any dialect and any orthography.

I have to say that I'm rather proud of my project ;-) It combines the
searchability and accessability of more mundane projects like
deutsch-plattdeutsch.de (partially driven by user-input; I consider them my
main competition because people I spoke to seem to like it for its size
[45,000 entries], although I dislike their inexactness and arbitrariness [a
dozen different entries for "groot" and entries like "Kack'schtelzön"]) and
the reliability and exactness of the more high-brow scientific projects
(which are usually not online [with the brave exception of
drentswoordenboek.nl] and are limited to single dialects).

As I have expressed occasionally I would love it if Low Saxon could
establish a public space of its own. Currently there are no platforms for
inter-Low Saxon communication. There's no Low Saxon society. All
communication runs through German and Dutch language channels. If we
establish true Low Saxon channels (a dedicated Low Saxon TV station is my
favorite, but other channels are relevant too) we will need good information
and documentation about our language. To give some examples: A news
presenter wants to write a text about a new type of bronchial medication. He
may wonders whether the word "kellen" for "to ache" is only known in a
limited area or good to use even when he addresses a bigger audience. With
Plattmakers he can find out that it is common Low Saxon. Or he wonders
whether there is a Low Saxon word for "bronchus". With Plattmakers he can
find out that there is "Lungenpiep". Plattmakers can help people make
educated decisions about their language use. I guess you can best understand
Plattmakers if you view it with this in mind: enabling people to make
educated decisions about their language use.

Marcus Buck



----------



From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

A great and also massive effort, as I said, Marcus.

Though I don’t want to come across as nitpicking, I suggest that in the
process of sound shifts you consider the issue of the so-called “dragging
tone” (*Schleifton*, *sleeptoon*). This feature continues in many dialects,
certainly among native speakers, and I would consider it a shame if it fell
by the wayside.

*Söög* (actually *Sœg’* or *Soeg’*) ‘sow’ is a good example. Generally,
dropping of the final *–e* causes an extra-long monophthong or diphthong,
and final devoice cannot apply. In other words, in more conservative
dialects it’s not pronounced [zøːç] or [zœːç] but [zøːˑɣ] or [zœːˑɣ]. This
is also why it is not *Sääch* but *Sääj* in Plautdietsch.

As indicated above, *Söög*  (actually *Sœg’* or *Soeg’*) ‘sow’ has a long
(actually extra-long) monophthong). It is not *Söög* as pronounced *[zœˑɪç]
or *[zɔˑɪç] (the latter of which would be written **Seug* ~ **Seuch* or **
Säug* ~**Säuch*). My point is that all authentic dialects still distinguish
the monophthong-diphthong pairs [øː] ~ [œː] <> [œˑɪ] ~ [ɔˑɪ], and [eː] ~
[ɛː] <> [ɛ ˑɪ] ~ [aˑɪ]. The founders of the German-based orthography
suggested writing the letters for long monophthongs with an *ogonek* (ę) but
this is typographically inconvenient in the case of *ö*. Therefore, it is
more common to write them *ä(ä)* and *oe* ~ œ*.* However, most people don’t
bother, and this accounts for learners’ mispronunciation. (In a forthcoming
publication I use an under-dot rather than an *ogonek* (since the latter is
associated with nasalization in the orthographies of several other
languages).

As I said, this is not to minimize your effort, just to offer constructive
input.

And again, well done!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
Seattle, USA



=========================================================
Send posting submissions to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
Send commands (including "signoff lowlands-l") to
listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or lowlands.list at gmail.com
http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=118916521473498<http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#%21/group.php?gid=118916521473498>
===============================================================
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/lowlands-l/attachments/20101213/403ae30f/attachment.htm>