LL-L "Language survival" 2010.12.18 (01) [AF-EN-NDS]

Sun Dec 19 03:23:02 UTC 2010

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L O W L A N D S - L - 18 December 2010 - Volume 01
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From: Paul Finlow-Bates <wolf_thunder51 at yahoo.co.uk>

Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2010.12.17 (01) [EN]

From: Sandy Fleming
<fleemin at live.co.uk<http://uk.mc264.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fleemin@live.co.uk>>

Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2010.12.16 (02) [EN]

"If you can't cope with the translation or rewrite (of technical terms),
then the question doesn't arise. You only have the option of offering
languages that you are capable producing it in."

Surely the argument for using these alternative languages is so that they
acquire a scientific literature? You could be completely fluent in Faroese,
but if there is no word for particular term (because all the other Faroese
experts in the field write papers in English), you've either got to
completely invent a new one, or "Faroe-ise" the Graeco-Latin word.  Most
native English speakers aren't experts in English grammar and linguistics,
and I assume that goes for other languages too.  So our hypothetical Faroese
agricultural economist is in the position of having to become an expert, or
find one.

As I say, appealing (I'd love to see an article on geotechnical engineering
with a translation in Frisian), but people are just too busy in most
technical disciplines. "Just and excuse", as you point out, but when you've
got 5 days worth of stuff to do in four days, something's going to get
dropped, and I rather suspect that this idea will be first in the firing
line!

Paul

Derby

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From: "dealangeam" <atdelange at iburst.co.za>

Subject: LL_L "Language survival" [AF-EN]

Beste Laaglanders,

Ek is baie bly dat Ron die Akademie se verklaring toegelaat het. Ek praat
nie namens die akademie nie en het niks te doen met die akademie nie. Ek was
besig met navorsing oor die uitsterf van tale toe ek by die verklaring
uitkom.

Piet Bult skryf:

"Van de Afrikaanse spraoke (en polletiek) weet ik vusen te min om daor een
zinnig woord over te zeggen,..."

Piet:

Hier in Suid Afrika vervies die Afrikaners van die Kaapprovinsie hulle
dikwels vir die Afrikaners in die noorde met hulle "gepraot" in plaas van
"gepraat". Hulle dink dit is aanstellerig. Maar dit is net nog 'n bewys van
Nederduits (Overysels, Agterhoeks, ....) in Afrikaans.

Jy skryf ook:

"Tja, en awwe et dan zels al niet doen...."

Ai, daardie woordjie "Tja". 60 jaar gelede was dit dikwels hier in die
noorde gebruik. Ek het 20 jaar laas die woord gehoor, maar gebruik dit nog
so nou en dan. Gewoonlik word ek aan gekyk asof ek snaaks wil wees.

Paul Bates wrote:

"When I lived in SA there was a tendency for Rand Afrikaans and Pretoria
Universities in particular to present the occasional paper in Afrikaans at
conferences, but it was recognised that it was more or less a political
requirement."

Paul, somewhere there is a misconception. What you think is a "political

requirement", was the last burning ambers of a passion _ reporting

scientific findings in Afrikaans so that it could compete with English,
German and French as a language good enough for even scientific reports.

Sadly, in 1975 MC Botha (a minister of the ruling National Party) did issue
a policy that Afrikaans will become the medium of instruction in black
schools. Rather following the route of court to undo it, the ANC incited
schoolchildren to overturn it by riots _ known as the Soweto riots of 1976.

(For the record. I resigned from the NP in 1965.)

There was no referendum on this ruling. It was cooked up by a secret society
called the Broederbond. They were the masters of the NP. Most whites were
against this ruling because they firmly believed in mother tongue education.
But they also believed that riots was not a civilised way to correct wrongs.
They had to choose and they chose civil order rather than mother tongue
education for black pupils.

You also wrote:

"There are any number of ways to preserve your language; scientific
literature surely isn't one of them, unless you specifically don't want to
be reviewed or cited by the community at large."

The history of science since Copernicus show a quite different perspective.
The great majority of scientists wrote in Latin because of a millenium old
tradition. But during the middle 1700's, Europeans began to publish in their
own languages like German, French and English.

Only after World War I (WWI) English began to dominate the "scientific
community" in all "field of expertise". I personally think (but may be
wrong) that much of it had to do with the Anglo_Boer war (1899_1902).

Mike Wintzer wrote:

"English could be the saviour of all the other languages of the world, if it
would become a lingua franca in the the form of a SECOND language
foreverybody, giving the first languages, big or small, the needed breathing
space.”

Mike, that appears to be the solution. But it works only in a country which
has only two cultures identified by their languages, one which is not
English.

When a country has more than two cultures, each with its own language, these
cultures die off one after the other. It seems to be in line with Darwinian
evolution - survival of the fittest. But should one of the languages be
colonial like Portugese, Spanish, French, Dutch, Italian and German, it is
rather like the invasion of an alien plant or animal species.

Many people became aware of the havoc caused by an alien natural species
only after WWII. Sadly, few people are aware that what applies to nature,
also applies to culture.

To prevent this alien invasion, i would suggest the associative pattern
X*Y*Z of wholeness. The Y is the commuter or umlomo (Zulu for mouth-piece).
Simpler said, what is needed is a trilingual education system:

(lingua_franca)*(mother_tongue)*(other-indigenous_language)

It worked in South Africa since 1925 (when Afrikaans became the second
official language) up to perhaps 1970. But it did not work well because:

(1) it was never enacted by law for the whole country

(2) human vices/greeds destroying the respect for other cultures .

Elsie Zinsser skryf:

"At, ons kan kerm en kla oor die tekort an akademiese werk in Afrikaans

maar terwyl die ondersteuningsbasis stadig maar seker wegkalwe ..."

Elsie, jy kyk die werklikheid vierkantig in die oe. Baie dankie.

Maar 'n mens moet buite die vierkant kyk na wat die oorsake is. Dit is
menslike sugte ("vices", "greeds") soos magsug, hebsug, eersug, selfsug,
wraaksug, gemaksug, .... Hierdie sugte dryf die "global culture" in
politiek, ekonomie, wetenskap, tegnologie, kuns, sport, ensovoorts.

Die oplossing sal nooit gevind word met die soort denke wat die probleem
veroorsaak het nie. Einstein was terdeë daarvan bewus. Ons moet die antwoord
soek op 'n hoer vlak van denke. Dit behels vir my sake soos vryheid,
self_verwesentliking, skeppery ("creativity"), respek, regverdigheid en
drifte ("passions").

Wat betref jou opmerkings dat die ANC die geleerdes wil terug dwing Suid
Afrika toe, net twee gedagtes:

(1) Die ANC van vandag en die ANC van Mandela van 20 jaar gelede verskil
soos dag van nag. Ek verstom my dat die res van die wêreld dit nie kan eien
nie. Maar hier in Suid Afrika begin al hoe meer mense van alle kulture se oe
oop gaan,

(2) Dwang is die mees sluwe vorm van miskenning van vryheid. Openlike oorlog
sou meer aanvaarbaar wees. Maar ons De lange familie koester sedert Hans
Dons (my voorvader 5 geslagte terug) 'n familie waarde - probleme word nie
opgelos deur bloed te laat vloei nie.

Soos wat die "global culture" groei, groei terrorisme ook. Nou wil meeste
lande elk skielik teen terrorisme veg met die VSA voor in die koor. Maak
eers 'n plan om die verwoestende gevolge wat die "global culture" op
inheemse kulture het, begin die skades reg te stel en terrorisme sal
verdwyn. Probeer eerder ‘n oop-gesprek as bloed-lating om mense te oortuig.

Sandy Fleming write:

"There's a third option, which is to make it available in both languages."

This is a very good option. But first we will have to solve the greeds of
global culture. Even the ANC became a victim of it once Mandela retired. The
result is that our  civil services is going down the drain.

What is worse, the ANC is now seriously considering a law that any leaking
of information (which will point to them) may be classified (by them) as
secret information. Anyone who leaks such information, will be punished
harsher than rapists and murderers.

Mooi loop

At de Lange

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