LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.12 (05) [EN]

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L O W L A N D S - L - 12 February 2010 - Volume 05
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From: "Joachim Kreimer-de Fries" <soz-red at jpberlin.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2010.02.13 (01)

Am 12.02.2010, R. F. Hahn scraif:

The name *Platt-Holländisch* (Dutch *Plat-Nederlands* and especially *
Plat-Hollands*) suggests to me *any* Dutch dialect that is not standard; in
old-fashioned parlance this includes the Low Saxon (*Nedersaksisch*)
dialects of the eastern provinces. As all of you know, these eastern
language varieties are now no longer considered part of *Nederlands* but
represent a language in its own right. In other words, they are not “Dutch,”
certainly not *Hollands*.

Goue tiid, Ron & Laigländers,

Quite right, beste Reggenhart, they are using the wording "plat" in the
original sense, the "plate taal", the open minded and folks language. Of
course the original term from one early bible translation is from "sciwen in
platen düdesk", platdüüdsk, "open, folkish dutch", engl. dutch=language of
the Lowlands, i. e. Continental Saxon.

Most Netherlanders that know anything about it also assume that there is a
close relationship between these Low Saxon varieties and those of Northern
Germany, the ones persistently called *Plattdeutsch* or *Niederdeutsch*,
with this old insistence on *Deutsch*.

It is the Saxon (DE sächsische) language, language of the Saxon dominated
regions once upon a time (and the later colonized before slavic - wendish -
east, Lübeck, Mecklenburg, Pommern, parts of old Prussia, Berlin-Brandenburg
etc.).

Aside from dialectical differences, those on the Netherlands’ side of the
border have been Dutch-influenced and are written with Dutch orthographic
principles, while those east of the border have been German-influenced and
are written with German orthographic principles.

The orthgraphy is the main difference, in my perception.

All of them are primarily descendants of the Old Saxon language, not of Old
Low Frankish (like Dutch) and not of Old “High” German.

In my perception, the difference between Dutch=Standard Netherlands and
Standard German (DE, HiGerman) is much wider than that between Standard
Netherlands and good Low Saxon = platdüüdsk. Don't forget, the (old)
HiGerman consonant shift seperated the upper (southern) Germany branch of
the West-Germanic languages not only from Saxon, but also from Low Francish.
Admitted that there are differences to Low Francish not only because of old,
"once upon a time" different ethnical roots (but what about these after so
many old and modern "Völkerwanderungen", dislocation of people, migration,
displacement etc.), but also of linguistic descendency, I would the like
give the stress on the *similarities* between Netherlandish/Flamish,
Netherfrancish, Saxon (Low Saxon in Netherlands, Belgium,  parts of North
France - Dünkiärken un ümmegiewing - and Platdüüsk in Germany before 1st
world war, there nearby even Old/Middle English, Norsk, Dansk and Swedish
varieties.

Because the name *Sachsen* (Saxony) was hijacked to denote a
Central-Frankish- and Thuringian-speaking region, reference to genuine
Saxony had do be marked by “Low” (or “Nether”: *Nieder-, Neder-, Nedder-*),
thus the German state being called *Niedersachsen* in German and *
Neddersassen* in Low Saxon. But on the German side of the border, people
can’t bring themselves to even casually mention *Niedersächsisch* in
reference to the language. It is reserved for reference to the
administrative unit. I am sure they assume that doing so would confuse
people. Well, the confusion comes from ignorance: most people have not been
taught that the ancestors of today’s North Germans and Eastern Netherlanders
were Saxons. If they knew this and would at least be exposed to the name *
Niedersächsisch* in reference to the language, they would also understand
why these particular writers from both sides of the border choose to meet.

 Quite right, therefore (not at last because Westfalia beeing part of the
original Saxon language area) I doubt, that the compromizing proposal "Low
Saxon"/"Niedersächsisch" has more chance of being accepted than *the more
radical speaking of "Saxon, sasseske, hd. sächsische Language".* Might be -
as compromize - speaking (in standard DE) of* 'Sassisch/Sassesk'* to avoid
the misunderstanding/confusing with the East-Middel-German langage variety
of the former Markgrafschaft Meißen (today federal Land miscalled "Saxony")
is also a solution. - In an italian speaking circle this week I had no
understanding problem speeking of my interest field as of "lingua sassone",
though.
-- 
Met echt-westfœlsken »Goutgaun!«

joachim
--
Kreimer-de Fries
Osnabrügge => Berlin-Pankow

•

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